Here is a discussion that we had some time ago about few critical
and interesting aspects of Islam. It gives some deeper insight
into the reality and state of sects in Islam and history of it. We went through
many different topics and stages, and had quite open and critical analysis of
various issues and topics, the course of the discussion was not pre-planed it
made its own way. Many things/facts discussed here
are unknown to many people, those facts are quite interesting. You would be enjoying the hard, hot and informative talk :)
………………………………………………
It starts here...
Zaheer
said:
Iranian official says that USA
is behind the terrorism inside Pakistan!
At the same time, he claims that USA and Co. is behind the opposition movement
in Iran!
These are very critical and important statements. First of all what right Iran does have to teach us who is behind
terrorism in Pakistan
although USA
is believed to be part of many activities? Sometimes even one feels as if that
tussle between Iran
and USA etc is just fake and show off! Secondly, even role of Iran inside Pakistan
is quite suspicious and many events of past lead to such an opinion and this
incident of Karachi
might be another one. Thirdly, that opposition movement inside Iran is very
strong one and is being supported by mainly young and educated people! In addition
to that even many big Iranian scholars and intellectuals are also with that big
and quite energetic movement!
One of the persons doing torching in Karachi
is wearing the green cloth on his hand – which is sign of opposition in Iran – and i
think it is an alleged effort to make those people a party! In reality, people
of that movement don’t have any such desire against Pakistan!
Without involvement of internal and higher officials of Pakistan such an easy torching and damage in Karachi seems not
possible!
Current regime of Iran
is very dubious and suspicious; one needs to be quite cautious of them!
………………….........................................
(jazoo belongs to Shia sect!)
jazoo said:
“First of all what right Iran
does have to teach us who is behind terrorism in Pakistan
although USA
is believed to be part of many activities?”
Informing is not teaching.
Poster starts with “first of all” kind of he had a list of grievances against Iran.
George galloway and many British MPs have slapped the whole muslim
nation…They are doing what should be done by us sleeping conscienceless
muslims.
Iran
is the lone voice of sanity among muslim masses which stands for repressed and
oppressed of the worlds nations specially Muslims.
Theres no difference between sold out Husni Mubarak of Egypt and these
remarks of “TEACHING US”
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“Informing is not teaching.”
So you think it is informing and not teaching, it might be like that
according to your dictionary! Why are they informing us? Do we not know what is
going on?
“Poster starts with “first of all” kind of he had a list of grievances
against Iran.”
Then what?
“George galloway and many British MPs have slapped the whole muslim
nation…They are doing what should be done by us sleeping conscienceless
muslims.”
So why are you sleeping, even in your picture here? Get up!
“Iran
is the lone voice of sanity among muslim masses which stands for repressed and
oppressed of the worlds nations specially Muslims.”
It is being claimed by a lone sane person i.e. you! It is true that Muslim
world is in chaos but where is Iran
standing by the way? Where was Iran
when people were being slaughtered in Gaza?
They can just cry or kill innocents like in Iraq i suppose! Just ask about the
true face of current regime by those who are protesting against them!
“Theres no difference between sold out Husni Mubarak of Egypt and these
remarks of “TEACHING US” ”
You are so good at comparing and making analogies and that too so perfect!
How sold out Husni Mubarak relates to this statement? Put some light on it
please!
…………………........................................
jazoo said:
Informing is a good gesture…Teaching is preaching and telling to do what
teacher says.
We are a non sovereign submissive nation we do not believe in information we
are used to getting dictation…You are unfortunately individual of the same
submissive nation…You don not understand information….You only understand
dictation.
What Iran did for Gaza, I think its better
to hear it from Palestinians
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
Hamas leader praises Iran’s
help in Gaza
‘victory’
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) — Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal on Sunday praised Iran for
helping Hamas achieve “victory” over Israel in Gaza, according to Iranian media
reports.
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, right, greets Iranian President Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad on Sunday.
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, right, greets Iranian President Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad on Sunday.
Click to view previous image
1 of 2
Click to view next image
“The victory of the people of Gaza was a
miracle of God and the Islamic Republic definitely has a share in this
victory,” Meshaal said after meeting with Iran’s
Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, according to Iran’s semi-official Fars News Agency.
Meshaal arrived in Tehran for his first visit
to the country since Israel’s
recent military offensive on Gaza,
Iranian media reported. He also met with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
and Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki.…
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
‘Help Gaza’ Included On Iran’s Cell
Phone Bills
March 09, 2009
Over the past few months there have been reports about Iranians in state jobs
being asked to give a portion of their salaries to help Gaza.
Now an Iranian blogger has posted a photo of his cell phone bill, where
“Help Gaza” is seen under other items such as international roaming, Internet,
and voicemail.
The picture the blogger posted doesn’t show the amount of the contribution
and it’s not clear whether it’s voluntary or obligatory.
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
Iran Tells Egypt It Is Ready To Help Gaza Wounded
Iranian Foreign Minister Manuchehr Mottaki
January 05, 2009
TEHRAN (Reuters) — Iran has told Egypt it is ready to treat people wounded in
the Israeli assault on Gaza and is seeking permission to set up a field
hospital nearby, the Iranian Foreign Ministry has said.
Iranian officials have condemned Israel for its attacks and
expressed support for the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, criticizing what
they say is the silence of some Arab states.…
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
LA Times
IRAN: Tehran
offers to help rebuild Gaza
Western governments may be deliberating about how and whether to give
reconstruction help to the war-ravaged Gaza Strip without strengthening Hamas.
But has Iran
has had no such compunctions.
On Sunday, the speaker of Iran’s
parliament said that his country would rebuild the Palestinian legislature
building destroyed by Israel
during the recent war in the Gaza Strip. Ali Larijani, speaker of the Iranian
majlis, or parliament, announced that the Islamic Republic’s legislature would
take responsibility for the reconstruction effort, according to Iranian state
media.…
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“Informing is a good gesture…Teaching is preaching and telling to do what
teacher says.”
You are great in defining things! I already asked why did they inform us while
we know what is going on? Some gestures are not needed sir! Teaching,
preaching, informing, requesting,… are very close terms and only you can draw
clear lines between them, Mr. Intellectual or!
“We are a non sovereign submissive nation we do not believe in information
we are used to getting dictation…”
You are right to some extent that we behave and think like non-sovereign nation
at occasions! Presence of rulers like Zardari, R. Malik, S. Taseer and Co. is
one evidence of that! But i disagree that we are always like that or all of us
are “non sovereign submissive”, there are many hurdles too that are pressing
our sovereignty. It is hard to say that we are used to dictation! :D :D
“You are unfortunately individual of the same submissive nation…You don not
understand information….You only understand dictation.”
Well, as i said that that nature is partly true but can’t be applied to all. I
don’t know how you define submission? In life everybody has to make some compromises
even by the strongest nation, is that submission? You think that i only
understand dictation? :S Could be your observation darling, but i don’t agree
to it.
“What Iran did for Gaza, I think its better
to hear it from Palestinians”
and don’t listen only to those Palestinian leaders who are pawns of Iran and
Co.!
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
From above information, you have shared, it seems that Iran did almost none to protect
poor Palestinians! Your sources of information are really great especially CNN
which is champion of lies and propaganda!
Is it a victory that 1500 mainly innocents were killed as a result of that
childish and emotional firework of some so called Palestinians? It is like
throw a stone at your enemy and then he comes and fires complete round of
bullets in your mouth! Do you call it victory, bravery and intellect? Strange!
After murder of so many innocents they made one protest, gave some
statements and mourned like they always do, and that is it! They wanted to make
some other efforts which were denied by another pawn of enemies called Husni
Mubarak! I consider both these regimes along with other Islamic countries
especially Arabs equally responsible for the massacre of Palestinians! Who is
paying at the end? Poor Palestinians!
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
“After murder of so many innocents they…”
they= Iranian Regime
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
@Zaheer
You wrote
“and don’t listen only to those Palestinian leaders who are pawns of Iran
and Co.!”
Is it possible instead of writing to many posts you write one sensible post.
I don’t mean to insult you but you are not intellectual match.
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“Is it possible instead of writing to many posts you write one sensible
post.”
No, it is not possible to write one sensible post, only you can do it ;)
“I don’t mean to insult you but you are not intellectual match.”
Yes i could understand your pure intentions and so pure personality! Thanks
for informing that i am not intellectual match Mr. Complete Intellect. You are
a certified intellectual! True?
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
@zaheer
if u can write
“and don’t listen only to those Palestinian leaders who are pawns of Iran
and Co.!”
Then its hard to make sensible dialogue with u.
You are calling 80% representative of Palestinian people…Pawn of Iran
Ironically all the Zionists and corrupt Arab rulers also think Hamas is Pawn of
Iran.
Now u can also understand
“Theres no difference between sold out Husni Mubarak of Egypt and these
remarks of “TEACHING US”
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“if u can write
“and don’t listen only to those Palestinian leaders who are pawns of Iran and
Co.!”
Then its hard to make sensible dialogue with u.”
I will again advice you the same Mr. Sensible.
“You are calling 80% representative of Palestinian people…Pawn of Iran”
I only talked about those representatives who are pawns and not the rest,
don’t try to bring all in the same category and then connecting them all as
Iranian supporters!
Thanks that you did not say it is 100% although you can even take it to
110%! This is how propaganda is spread by making statements like we have big
support or we are fighting for the oppressed people etc. This is an old
psychological tactic to make people believe false facts! Now after your
statement people would be confused and would start thinking if it is really 80%
support, even !
“Ironically all the Zionists and corrupt Arab rulers also think Hamas is
Pawn of Iran.”
I don’t know what really Hamas is! Quite ironically it seems that current
Iranian regime is also big pawn of Zionists or! Zionists( a group of Jews)
would not be afraid of them as they know this Tribe is historically their own
creation and also they are harmless although they cry a lot!
This is how Iranians justify themselves as saviors and champions of truth
i.e. by calling Zionists and USA etc. their enemies, and simple Muslims start
believing them! This is called cashing the hate and emotions of the people!
I think they killed this person themselves because he was with Green
movement and have put blame on Zionists and USA etc! Same old tactic.
“Now u can also understand
“Theres no difference between sold out Husni Mubarak of Egypt and these
remarks of “TEACHING US” ”
Now you can understand that Iranian official was trying to score points and
his statement was to attract Pakistani Muslims! I know tomorrow you may even call
me Zionist if i continued to talk about your Iranian Masters!
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
@Zaheer
You wrote and again u make an ass of urself
“Thanks that you did not say it is 100% although you can even take it to
110%! This is how propaganda is spread by making statements like we have big
support or we are fighting for the oppressed people etc. ”
This is not propaganda…..This is about land slide victory of Hamas in
General Election.
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“You wrote and again u make an ass of urself”
The words used by you reflect your great personality.
“This is not propaganda…..This is about land slide victory of Hamas in
General Election.”
There are few factors! 1: How much support Hamas do have today is difficult to
judge because there are a lot factors that change and play a role 2: As i said
earlier, not all the people in Hamas are with Iran. 3: People of Palestine don’t have much choice except
selecting between two parties! 4: Even Hamas like Palestinian people can’t
exercise full freedom, they also are under pressures and have to make a lot of
compromises 5: Any group could use the emotions and plight of Palestinians for
the vested interests! 6: Even leadership of any group might be changed/brought
according to personal preferences. 7: and still possibility of propaganda in
different forms is always there especially by current Iranian regime!
I think, people should keep in mind the history of some people, who have
tendency to withdraw the support at critical point i.e. who first promised
support to Imam Hussain(RA) and then left him alone in the battle field!
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
@Zaheer
You amazingly jump to another sectarian topic which probably you were
itching to spew.
“I think, people should keep in mind the history of some people, who have
tendency to withdraw the support at critical point i.e. who first promised
support to Imam Hussain(RA) and then left him alone in the battle field!”
Those were bad people who deceived Imam Hussain(as) but still they were far
better than killers of Imam Hussain.
The first NRO was given when Marwan was allowed in Madina….whom Prophet(SAW)
had expelled from Madina.
Another NRO was given to Mauwiah and all these NROs are and were the reason of
our destruction today and tragedy of Karbala.
First learn to call spade a spade and do not mix good with bad because Islam
is a straight path and theres no other way…its not possible everyone is
Razi-Allah-o-Unhon.
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“You amazingly jump to another sectarian topic which probably you were
itching to spew.”
:S, topics are necessary dear.
“Those were bad people who deceived Imam Hussain(as) but still they were far
better than killers of Imam Hussain.”
There were “bad people” who deceived Imam Hussain(RA) and there were
“killers” of Imam Hussain(AS)! According to your opinion first group was better
than the second one, but i consider them both equally responsible and it will
only be judged by Allah(SWT) on the Day of Judgment who was how much
responsible.
But here question is where are those two criminal groups? They did not perish
from the face of the earth, their generations have been growing and are
somewhere on this planet even today! I am very anxious about knowing their
localities, status and roles because these people have been core to the
divisions, fights and internal destruction of Islam! I also want to know real
inheritors(family) of Prophet Muhammad(SW).
“The first NRO was given when Marwan was allowed in Madina….whom
Prophet(SAW) had expelled from Madina.
Another NRO was given to Mauwiah and all these NROs are and were the reason of
our destruction today and tragedy of Karbala.”
History is as tricky as world: different opinions, different groups,
different likes/dislikes, different perspectives etc! There are differences in
historical views since history is written by human beings and it means one
finds different opinions, differences, commonalities and perspectives on
historical events/happenings. Same incident could be interpreted in different
ways using history.
I personally feel that Tragedy of Karbala happened because of two groups:
deceivers and killers, backed by third party. If one looks at the events from
the lenses of One Group then one thinks that it was totally fault of people you
mentioned above but if one looks at it with lenses of Second Group then fault
goes somewhere else. So i personally think that it was combined crime of two
groups and these groups played in the hands of a Third Party and they are still
playing in their hands! Quite interestingly, these two groups are dominating
the Muslim world even today!!
“First learn to call spade a spade and do not mix good with bad because
Islam is a straight path and theres no other way…”
I call spade a spade, don’t worry, i don’t call so at dictation of others
though ;) I try my best not to mix good with bad. Yes, Islam is a straight path
free of sects, there was no sect of all Prophets, Prophet Muhammad(SAW), first
four Caliphs, Companions and Family of Prophet Muhammad(SAW): all of them
followed one straight path i.e. Islam and nothing else!
“its not possible everyone is Razi-Allah-o-Unhon.”
Allah(SWT) is happy with them of course but in addition to that they have
extremely high privilege of being among family of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) so
peace(salam) on them too!
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
“I call spade a spade, don’t worry, i don’t call so at dictation of others
though ;) I try my…”
is as
“I call spade a spade, don’t worry, i don’t call so at dictation of others
though ;). I try my…”
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
@Zaheer
Its hard for u to find those two groups u are looking for because u do not
believe in history.
Its easy and its ur
duty to find one group of people which is stated in 33:33 if u believe in
Quran.
The verse use article Al-Rijs means they are purified from all kind of
impurities and its intention of Allah to purify them.
Now in Jaml which cause destruction and muslim blood was shed from both sides.
Your faith that Leaders of the both sides were subject of 33:33 is flawed.
Either Allah miserably failed to purify them or He is weak in His
intentions(Nauzubillah).
This corrupt faith that both sides were good has brought destruction to Muslim
Ummah. We recite Al-Fatiha 17 times a day and every time we pray put us on the
path of Those who were subject of Your Bounties….and we are not sure who were
recipients of those bounties…still we do not know what were those bounties.
Beheading and killing ur Muslim brothers is no more sin because Mauwiah had
started this beheading with Sahabi-e-Rasul Hajr bin Addi and many more….Mauwiah
himself was sahabi so Prophet so called saying my all sahabi like stars follow
anyone of thm you will be on right path.
You derive ur
inspirations from people u believe in.
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“Its hard for u to find those two groups u are looking for because u do not
believe in history.”
I believe in history, how did you conclude that? I don’t, however, believe in
selective and one sided history, presented by a specific group.
I think, those two groups could be traced.
“Its easy and its ur
duty to find one group of people which is stated in 33:33 if u believe in
Quran.”
I am a Muslim sir! People mentioned in 33:33 include both four people of house
of Ali(RA) and wives of Prophet Muhammad(SAW)! It is mentioned in the Ayats
from 33 and 34.
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1861&Itemid=89#1
“The verse use article Al-Rijs means they are purified from all kind of
impurities and its intention of Allah to purify them.”
and Allah(SWT) has mentioned conditions before promise of purification in the
same Ayah.
(And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times
of ignorance, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat and obey
Allah and His Messenger…)
“Now in Jaml which cause destruction and muslim blood was shed from both
sides.”
True.
“Your faith that Leaders of the both sides were subject of 33:33 is flawed.”
It does not flaw the Ayah! Jamal might be mistake of both parties or both were
right or anyone might be right! Don’t forget that 33:33 includes conditions for
the purification!
“Either Allah miserably failed to purify them or He is weak in His
intentions(Nauzubillah).”
Allah(SWT) conditioned the purification with the things mentioned in the Ayah
so anyone who followed them is purified and i believe all of them were
purified.
“This corrupt faith that both sides were good has brought destruction to
Muslim Ummah.”
In my opinion faith that one of them was right has brought destruction to the
Ummah!
“We recite Al-Fatiha 17 times a day and every time we pray put us on the
path of Those who were subject of Your Bounties….”
Right, this is what Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and his followers did, so same we do.
“and we are not sure who were recipients of those bounties…still we do not
know what were those bounties.”
All Prophets and all those who followed Allah(SWT) and His Prophets are those
who are recipients of bounties. Who are those bounties in your opinion?
“Beheading and killing ur
Muslim brothers is no more sin because Mauwiah had started this beheading with
Sahabi-e-Rasul Hajr bin Addi and many more….”
It is a sin and it will be if done wrongly! I am not a judge about Mauwiah or
any other Sahabi and can’t say what exactly happened, it is not my duty, Allah
knows best what they did and why, and He will judge everyone on the Day of
Judgment when all the proofs and evidences will be there!
“Mauwiah himself was sahabi so Prophet so called saying my all sahabi like
stars follow anyone of thm you will be on right path.”
I need reference to this Hadith. Sahabah of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) were human
beings and they differed with one another but the criteria to judge and follow
them is Quran and Hadith. It is true that they were among the best followers so
are sources of motivation and guidance!
“You derive ur
inspirations from people u believe in.”
I believe in all those things which are made necessary to believe by
Allah(SWT), and it is true that one gets inspired by the people, it is natural.
I personally think that there was some fault of Muawiah that he could not keep
the system of SHURA quite nice and also he appointed Yazeed as his successor in
not right way! and Allah knows best.
Here is one speech by Dr. Israr Ahmed in this context and he gives some good
insight into the incident of Karbala
and its background.
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
@Zaheer
Verse 33:33 also use word “Innima” which is used for absolute authority that
to emphasize.
In other words nothing would happen but this sure will happen or the case….all
the conditions in the preceding part are for those who are not subject after
“Innima”
[Pickthal 33:33] And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the
bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the
poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah’s wish is but to remove
uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a
thorough cleansing.
Pickthal has translated “innima” with English “But” that means nothing but
this sure will happen.
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“Verse 33:33 also use word “Innima” which is used for absolute authority
that to emphasize.
In other words nothing would happen but this sure will happen or the case….all
the conditions in the preceding part are for those who are not subject after
“Innima” ”
Of course, if Allah’s orders(mentioned in Ayah) are fulfilled then His
promise is surely fulfilled!
“[Pickthal 33:33] And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the
bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the
poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah’s wish is but to remove
uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a
thorough cleansing.”
Meaning is the same although words are different! By the way, what do you
think, is “And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment
of the Time of Ignorance” for both men and women?
“Pickthal has translated “innima” with English “But” that means nothing but
this sure will happen .”
Yes, what Allah(SWT) wants, it definitely happens!
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
@Zaheer
You and I may differ on interpretation of Quranic verses.
It was Prophet’s prime job to explain Quran and this explanation was done
through His actions and verbal interpretations.
A load of Prophet’s traditions accepted unanimously, are available
explaining who are subject of 33:33
Its better we understand 33:33 from another verse of Quran.
When I invite Zaheer at my home and ask him to bring his women also….First
thing Zaheer will do…He will bring his wife not daughter.
If I tell Zaheer bring his women, we will have some dinner after that we will
curse on liars and Zaheer happened to have a Siddiqua(Truthful) wife….He sure
will bring his wife.
When the things goes out of hands with Christians of Najran….They refused to
follow any logic…..Verses revealed tell them to bring their women and their
children and their Nafs and you bring the same with you to curse on liars.
Allah’s Prophet bring with him Fatima His daughter(Women) His grandsons
Hasan and Hussain(Children) and for His nafs, Ali.
Abu Bakr(ra) who was indeed a Siddique(Truthful) he first accept Islam and
testify Prophethood of Mohammad(saw) and Ayesha Siddiqua(ra) was indeed a
truthful person who has narrated many of Prophet’s traditions with great
authority.
Now I want to differentiate between people of God and people of Good morals
and ethics.
Though both father and daughter were known as truthful persons but none of them
were invited to curse on liars because it was a serious matter….if they had a
single lie in their account curse will come back on them.
When Christians saw the pure souls of Panjatan they knew if they curse this
mountain may fall on us or we may burn alive…they got scared and decided to pay
the penalty in kind.
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“You and I may differ on interpretation of Quranic verses.”
Yes of course we can, this is our right!
“It was Prophet’s prime job to explain Quran and this explanation was done
through His actions and verbal interpretations.”
True.
“A load of Prophet’s traditions accepted unanimously, are available explaining
who are subject of 33:33″
I have already given you explanation in this context. I would like to see that
load of traditions and their sources.
“Its better we understand 33:33 from another verse of Quran.”
Ok, although these two Ayah are quite different in context!
“When I invite Zaheer at my home and ask him to bring his women also….First
thing Zaheer will do…He will bring his wife not daughter.”
Not necessarily! Why will one do so?
“If I tell Zaheer bring his women, we will have some dinner after that we
will curse on liars and Zaheer happened to have a Siddiqua(Truthful) wife….He
sure will bring his wife.”
What is the criteria for being truthful? How will it be decided that one is
truthful?
“When the things goes out of hands with Christians of Najran….They refused
to follow any logic…..”
Yes.
“Verses revealed tell them to bring their women and their children and their
Nafs and you bring the same with you to curse on liars.”
It is Ayah 61 from Sura Al-Imran
(Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves
and yourselves, then we pray and we invoke Allah’s curse upon the liars.)
and meanings of the Ayah show that it is about women and not any specific
woman!
“Allah’s Prophet bring with him Fatima His daughter(Women) His grandsons
Hasan and Hussain(Children) and for His nafs, Ali.”
There are different viewpoints about it. Some Tafaseer say that this
remained only to the offer as they(Christians) declined the offer before
Prophet could come out.
It is possible that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) might have brought people of his
family with him but it is not clear who exactly were those people!
In other tafseer the people you mentioned are included but it sounds weak.
First of all Fatima(RA) was only one woman and not women and Ali(RA) is not
included in the people who were asked to bring with! “His nafs” seems an
ambiguous and forged connection and it is used to fit somehow Ali(RA) in this
list!
Even if it supposed that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) took those members along which
you mentioned, due to any wisdom which we don’t know, but it still does not
mean that his wives were lower in status than those who accompanied him or they
were not among truthful!
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=533&Itemid=46#2
“Abu Bakr(ra) who was indeed a Siddique(Truthful) he first accept Islam and
testify Prophethood of Mohammad(saw) and Ayesha Siddiqua(ra) was indeed a
truthful person who has narrated many of Prophet’s traditions with great
authority.”
Aisha(RA) was not only Siddiqah but was also beloved wife of Prophet
Muhammad(SAW) and mother of the believers!
“Now I want to differentiate between people of God and people of Good morals
and ethics.”
What is your authority to define who are people of God and who are not and what
is the criteria by the way?
“Though both father and daughter were known as truthful persons but none of
them were invited to curse on liars because it was a serious matter”
As i mentioned above, it happened differently than you have mentioned!
Secondly, this curse was for those who lied about personality/status of Prophet
Jesus and not any other issue! Had it been only for the criteria of liar and
truthful families, then members of the families of Christians were at greater
risk! It was indeed to judge if Christians were right or wrong in their claim
about status of Prophet Jesus and it was not a contest to judge the
truthfulness of members of the families!
“….if they had a single lie in their account curse will come back on them.”
It was not a account checking rather the aim was other! and Aisha(RA) was as
truthful as any other member of the family of Prophet Muhammad(SAW)!
“When Christians saw the pure souls of Panjatan they knew if they curse this
mountain may fall on us or we may burn alive…they got scared and decided to pay
the penalty in kind.”
There were different reasons for that withdrawal by Christians as i have
mentioned above!
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
@Zaheer
Narrated Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas:
…And when the verse 3:61 was revealed, the Prophet called Ali, Fatimah,
al-Hasan, and al-Husain. Then the Prophet said: “O Lord! These are my family
members (Ahli).”
references:
* Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of virtues of Ali,
1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi
Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1871, the end
of tradition #32.
* Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p654
* al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p150, who said this tradition is authentic
based on the criteria set by two Shaikhs, al-Bukhari and Muslim.
* Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p25
………………….........................................
jazoo said:
Narrated Aisha(ra):
One day the Prophet (PBUH&HF) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak
(upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet
accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Husain came and entered the cloak,
then Fatimah came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came
and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited:
“Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People
of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification (the last
sentence of Verse 33:33).”
reference:
* Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of
the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia,
Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61.
Another version of the “Tradition of Cloak” is written in Sahih al-Tirmidhi,
which is narrated in the authority of Umar Ibn Abi Salama, the son of Umm
Salama (another wife of Prophet), which is as follows:
The verse “Verily Allah intends to … (33:33)” was revealed to the Prophet
(PBUH&HF) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah,
al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali
who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: “O’ Allah! These are the Members of
my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with
a perfect purification.” Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: “Am I also
included among them O Apostle of Allah?” the Prophet replied: “You remain in
your position and you are toward a good ending.”
reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663
reference: Tafsir al-Tabari, v22, p7 under the commentary of verse 33:33
Beside Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Tirmidhi from which we quoted the Tradition
of Cloak on the authority of Aisha(ra) and Umm Salama(ra) respectively, below
are more references of the Tradition of Cloak who reported both versions of the
traditions:
(3) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v6, pp 323,292,298; v1, pp 330-331; v3, p252;
v4, p107 from Abu Sa’id al-Khudri
(4) Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p578, Tradition #978
(5) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p416 (two traditions) from Ibn Abi
Salama, v3, pp 146-148 (five traditions), pp 158,172
(6) al-Khasa’is, by an-Nisa’i, pp 4,8
(7) al-Sunan, by al-Bayhaqi, narrated from Aisha and Umm Salama
(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 2, p69
(9) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v2, p700 (Istanbul), from Aisha
(10) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v5, pp 198,605 from Aisha and
Umm Salama
(11) Tafsir Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v22, pp 5-8 (from Aisha and Abu Sa’id
al-Khudri), pp 6,8 (from Ibn Abi Salama) (10 traditions)
(12) Tafsir al-Qurtubi, under the commentary of verse 33:33 from Umm Salama
(13) Tafsir Ibn Kathir, v3, p485 (Complete version) from Aisha and Umar Ibn
Abi Salama
(14) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir, v2, p12; v4, p79 narrated from Ibn Abi
Salama
(15) Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, sec. 1, p221
from Umm Salama
(16) Tarikh, by al-Khateeb Baghdadi, v10, narrated from Ibn Abi Salama
(17) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, v1, p193 narrated from Aisha
(18) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v1, pp 332-336 (seven traditions)
(19) Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, by Muhibb al-Tabari, pp21-26, from Abu Sa’id Khudri
(20) Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p166 (by several transmitters)
………………….........................................
Zaheer
said:
@jazoo
“Narrated Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas:
…And when the verse 3:61 was revealed, the Prophet called Ali, Fatimah,
al-Hasan, and al-Husain. Then the Prophet said: “O Lord! These are my family
members (Ahli).”
references:
……
Narrated Aisha(ra):
One day the Prophet (PBUH&HF) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak
(upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet
accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Husain came and entered the cloak,
then Fatimah came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came
and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited:
“Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People
of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification (the last
sentence of Verse 33:33).”
references:
…… ”
I think the Ahadith are the same but have been mentioned in many different
books, so basic reference has been main books of Hadith like Sahih Muslim and
Sahih al-Tirmidhi! Basic criteria to judge a Hadith is not that how many later
books have referred to it!
I found two Ahadith in this context from Sahih Muslim!
Bk 31, Number 5915:(Muslim)
“This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu’ba with the same
chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of
his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa’d as the Governor and said:
What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat ‘Ali), whereupon be said:
It is because of three things which I remember Allah’s Messenger (may peace be
upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find
one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red
camelg. I heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about ‘Ali as he
left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). ‘All said to him:
Allah’s Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon
Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren’t you satisfied
with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there
is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I
would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his
Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He
(the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy
Prophet) said: Call ‘Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied
saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him
victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:
“Let us summon our children and your children.” Allah’s Messenger (may peace be
upon him) called ‘Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my
family. ”
Bk 31, Number 5955: (Muslim)
” ‘A’isha reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one
norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hasan
b. ‘Ali. He wrapped hitn under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it
along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it,
then came ‘Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires
to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify
you (thorough purifying).”
The first Hadith of Sahih Muslim i mentioned above gives one point of view
about Ayah 3:61, which is quite possible as i said in my previous post.
Second Hadith shows that Prophet Muhammad(SAW) called Ali, Fatima, Hasan and
Husain as people of the household, they were extremely loved by him, he prayed
for them, which is agreed upon.
But as far as Ayah 33:33 is concerned, it seems quite clear that it
addresses the Wives of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and it needs to be understood in
its right context and meanings.
So it could be concluded that Wives of Prophet(SAW) and these four
personalities are “people of the household”.
and Allah(SWT) knows best.
……………………………………………………………………………
And after this there was a long silence and pause. We started it again after
some time that comes in next posts. Stay tuned :=)
