And here is the second and final part. In this encounter we went further, deeper and broader and discussed things with even more openness, freedom and courage. Many topics that are very interesting, conflicting and important from the history of the Islam and politics were brought into talk one after other and each one was given enough time and attention. It was a hotter, tougher and more informative round of the talk than last one. You would like the style of discussion and know many more hidden, interesting and mysterious facts this time too. Be ready for quite serious and hard discussion :). Here is how it started after a short pause…
……………
Zaheer said:
He says he talks against CIA , Zardari or R. Malik!
but who knows, it could be just a show and reality could be opposite!
but who knows, it could be just a show and reality could be opposite!
and yet at another point says that “… naa humain ghatia bania hey naa buzdil naa begairat …”!
again reality and self claims could be different!
again reality and self claims could be different!
At one stage he is trying to equate himself with Allama Iqbal and Qaid-e-Azam! What a great personality we got!
……………………………………………………..
jazoo said:
@zaheer says
“He says he talks against CIA , Zardari or R. Malik!
but who knows, it could be just a show and reality could be opposite!”
but who knows, it could be just a show and reality could be opposite!”
You is “WHO” who knows everything in his heart.
WHO could be more stupid than who is “YOU”
…………………………………………………..
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“You is “WHO” who knows everything in his heart.”
:), no it is you! I have also mentioned above that no one knows what is in the heart of a person! E.g. You are a Shia and doing Taqiyya most probably and no body knows but you know! ;)
:), no it is you! I have also mentioned above that no one knows what is in the heart of a person! E.g. You are a Shia and doing Taqiyya most probably and no body knows but you know! ;)
“WHO could be more stupid than who is “YOU””
Again it could be you! :) :)
Again it could be you! :) :)
…………………………………………………..
jazoo said:
@zaheer
Zaid Hamid is not shia so why taqqayya.
You don’t know whats in his heart but you feel no shame to say “who knows whats in his heart”
This Expression is used when one not ready to believe what one says.
“Any one who becomes unbeliever after being believer, EXCLUDING the
one who is under compulsion and force while his hurt is firm in faith,
but the one go on in disbelief, Wrath of Allah is on to them and they
will have a dreadful penalty,” (Quran 16:106)
one who is under compulsion and force while his hurt is firm in faith,
but the one go on in disbelief, Wrath of Allah is on to them and they
will have a dreadful penalty,” (Quran 16:106)
Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti in his book, “al-Durr al-Manthoor Fi al-Tafsir al-
Ma’athoor,” narrates Ibn Abbas’, the MOST renowned and trusted narrator of
tradition, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the Quranic verse:
Ma’athoor,” narrates Ibn Abbas’, the MOST renowned and trusted narrator of
tradition, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the Quranic verse:
“Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no relation left with Allah except by way of precaution (“tat- aqooh”), that ye may guard yourselves (“tooqatan”) from them….[3:28]”
Ibn Abbas said:
“al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into
saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable
(i.e., hisTRUE faith has NOT been shaken.), then (saying that which
he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al-
Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart).”
saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable
(i.e., his
he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al-
Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart).”
The two words “tat-taqooh” and “tooqatan,” as mentioned in the Arabic
Quran, are BOTH from the same root of “al-Taqiyya.”
Quran, are BOTH from the same root of “al-Taqiyya.”
In early days of Islam in Mecca
It has been narrated by Abd al-Razak, Ibn Sa’d, Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Hatim,
Ibn Mardawayh, al-Bayhaqi in his book “al- Dala-il,” and it was corrected
by al-Hakim in his book “al- Mustadrak” that:
Ibn Mardawayh, al-Bayhaqi in his book “al- Dala-il,” and it was corrected
by al-Hakim in his book “al- Mustadrak” that:
“The nonbelievers arrested `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) and (tortured him
until) he (RA) uttered foul words about the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and
praised their gods (idols); and when they released him (RA), he (RA)
went straight to the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said:
“Is there something on your mind?” `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) said: “Bad
(news)! They would not release me until I defamed you (PBUH&HF) and
praised their gods!” The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “How do you find
your heart to be?” `Ammar (RA) answered: “Comfortable with faith.” So
the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “Then if they come back for you, then do
the same thing all over again.” Allah (SWT) at that moment revealed
the verse: “….except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in
faith…[16:106]”
until) he (RA) uttered foul words about the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and
praised their gods (idols); and when they released him (RA), he (RA)
went straight to the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said:
“Is there something on your mind?” `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) said: “Bad
(news)! They would not release me until I defamed you (PBUH&HF) and
praised their gods!” The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “How do you find
your heart to be?” `Ammar (RA) answered: “Comfortable with faith.” So
the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “Then if they come back for you, then do
the same thing all over again.” Allah (SWT) at that moment revealed
the verse: “….except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in
faith…[16:106]”
The full verse:
Shakir 16:106] He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief– on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.
[Yusufali 16:106] Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith – but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.
[Pickthal 16:106] Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief – save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith – but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.
………………………………………………………..
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“Zaid Hamid is not shia so why taqqayya.”
Anyone can do that it is not difficult, of course for Shias it is like brushing the teeth and it is probably the most important worship for them, and i also wrote he(Zaid) could do something similar to Taqqayya!
Anyone can do that it is not difficult, of course for Shias it is like brushing the teeth and it is probably the most important worship for them, and i also wrote he(Zaid) could do something similar to Taqqayya!
“You don’t know whats in his heart but you feel no shame to say “who knows whats in his heart” ”
I felt shame that is why i said that “who knows” otherwise i could have written like “he is surely like that…”!
I felt shame that is why i said that “who knows” otherwise i could have written like “he is surely like that…”!
“This Expression is used when one not ready to believe what one says.”
Good play of words and that is what Shias know good although reality they know very little as their most energies are wasted in playing word games and cheating simple people! ;)By the way, above expression could be used to show possibilities or probability…! “not ready to believe” is not a necessary condition in this case Mr. Expression!
Good play of words and that is what Shias know good although reality they know very little as their most energies are wasted in playing word games and cheating simple people! ;)By the way, above expression could be used to show possibilities or probability…! “not ready to believe” is not a necessary condition in this case Mr. Expression!
“Any one who becomes unbeliever after being believer, EXCLUDING the
one who is under compulsion and force while his hurt is firm in faith,
but the one go on in disbelief, Wrath of Allah is on to them and they
will have a dreadful penalty,” (Quran 16:106)
one who is under compulsion and force while his hurt is firm in faith,
but the one go on in disbelief, Wrath of Allah is on to them and they
will have a dreadful penalty,” (Quran 16:106)
So from that EXCLUDING you and your tribe has inferred the ground for telling lies and cheating and has taken it as worship rather than keeping it for exceptional situations! You people have made it necessary rather than doing it under compulsion! It is the problem of my Shia fellows that they are most of the time looking to stretch the meanings for the support of their strange faiths and actions and in this process they play with Ayahs, they seem to concentrate upon individual words than whole Ayays and their contexts!
“Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti in his book, “al-Durr al-Manthoor Fi al-Tafsir al-
Ma’athoor,” narrates Ibn Abbas’, the MOST renowned and trusted narrator of
tradition, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the Quranic verse: ”
Ma’athoor,” narrates Ibn Abbas’, the MOST renowned and trusted narrator of
tradition, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the Quranic verse: ”
Don’t have access to the book so can’t tell what is written there and what is the real context! Another normal act of Shias that many times they refer to the books that are not common and then they try to exploit that situation in their favor! You people would be spent in this process of playing tricks i suppose! Open your eyes and brains and understand that goal is to understand and follow Islam and not to defend sects like Shiaism!
At the same time they have created their own books of hadith and stay away from real major books of Hadith! They feel good at going against Islam in maximum possible aspects!
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/shia-texts/shia-holy-books (unfortunately this very informative website has been hacked most probably by…!)
At the same time they have created their own books of hadith and stay away from real major books of Hadith! They feel good at going against Islam in maximum possible aspects!
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/shia-texts/shia-holy-books (unfortunately this very informative website has been hacked most probably by…!)
“Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no relation left with Allah except by way of precaution (“tat- aqooh”), that ye may guard yourselves (“tooqatan”) from them….[3:28]”
This Ayah also mentions an exceptional situation involving unbelievers but you people have made it not only necessary but also stretched it for almost all times, conditions! Shia fellows have made Taqiyyah lawful even among themselves, so they play with each other using the game Taqiyyah Taqiyyah, and against other Muslims too i.e. against Sunnies! Conversion of exceptions to obligations and further!
“Ibn Abbas said:
“al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into
saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable
(i.e., hisTRUE faith has NOT been shaken.), then (saying that which
he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al-
Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart).” ”
“al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into
saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable
(i.e., his
he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al-
Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart).” ”
Where is it mentioned? I think al-Taqiyya of Shias is no more with tongue rather it has probably filled their whole hearts and minds!
“The two words “tat-taqooh” and “tooqatan,” as mentioned in the Arabic
Quran, are BOTH from the same root of “al-Taqiyya.””
Quran, are BOTH from the same root of “al-Taqiyya.””
Aha, again the same habit of playing the word and meaning game! Can’t say!
“In early days of Islam in Mecca
Can’t say about its truthfulness and context but later this condition/order was changed i suppose! I think Shias are most of the time living in a special time like early days of Islam and in Makkah or Battle of Badr etc! This cruel world, especially Sunnies and not non-believers, have not allowed them to grow up to any further mental/physical/spiritual level!
“It has been narrated by Abd al-Razak, Ibn Sa’d, Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Hatim,
Ibn Mardawayh, al-Bayhaqi in his book “al- Dala-il,” and it was corrected
by al-Hakim in his book “al- Mustadrak” that:”
Ibn Mardawayh, al-Bayhaqi in his book “al- Dala-il,” and it was corrected
by al-Hakim in his book “al- Mustadrak” that:”
Again old habit of mentioning the uncommon or weak books! I read something about this book
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mustadrak_alaa_al-Sahihain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mustadrak_alaa_al-Sahihain
“The nonbelievers arrested `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) and (tortured him
until) he (RA) uttered foul words about the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and
praised their gods (idols); and when they released him (RA), he (RA)
went straight to the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said:
“Is there something on your mind?” `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) said: “Bad
(news)! They would not release me until I defamed you (PBUH&HF) and
praised their gods!” The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “How do you find
your heart to be?” `Ammar (RA) answered: “Comfortable with faith.” So
the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “Then if they come back for you, then do
the same thing all over again.” Allah (SWT) at that moment revealed
the verse: “….except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in
faith…[16:106]”
until) he (RA) uttered foul words about the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and
praised their gods (idols); and when they released him (RA), he (RA)
went straight to the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said:
“Is there something on your mind?” `Ammar Ibn Yasir (RA) said: “Bad
(news)! They would not release me until I defamed you (PBUH&HF) and
praised their gods!” The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “How do you find
your heart to be?” `Ammar (RA) answered: “Comfortable with faith.” So
the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: “Then if they come back for you, then do
the same thing all over again.” Allah (SWT) at that moment revealed
the verse: “….except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in
faith…[16:106]”
Very dangerous text and contents! Firstly, the referenced book is quite doubtful secondly the words used here seem to be very strange thirdly such text has not been mentioned in other authentic books fourthly the extent of even uttering foul words about the Prophet(SAW) (i.e. not restricting to uttering of disbelief) fifthly Prophet(SAW) asked him to do the same again and sixthly a complete verse has been attached to this hadith but still not mentioned in authentic books! It makes it extremely hard to believe that!
“Shakir 16:106] He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief– on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.”
It is mentioned about a certain condition and is not for all times. It also needs to be understood that it is for the condition where one is compelled/forced and is not able to resist or bear the opposition anymore, and not that one practices it in normal conditions and makes it habit or part of dealings or source of cheating others or to hide the truth/faith etc! There have been so many examples where people did not utter disbelief even in the hardest situations and one famous example is of Bilal(RA)!
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2933&Itemid=71
and Allah(SWT) knows best.
……………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@zaheer
The problem here is I am facing a hardcore paindoo.
It seems like he is communicating in English but hardly make cohesive words.
His utterance is like a Zombie making sounds and expecting listeners to make some sense out of it…..to many sounds he thinks will make him to many meanings…his contribution is venom
He is least interested in meaningful thoughtful debate…..its good enough for him that his posts carrying to many words shia with venom not necessary to make sense.
It seems like he is communicating in English but hardly make cohesive words.
His utterance is like a Zombie making sounds and expecting listeners to make some sense out of it…..to many sounds he thinks will make him to many meanings…his contribution is venom
He is least interested in meaningful thoughtful debate…..its good enough for him that his posts carrying to many words shia with venom not necessary to make sense.
Now Paindoo
Do you know the meanings of “WORSHIP”
Don you know what are tenet of faith and how they derived in Islam.
Do you know the meanings of “WORSHIP”
Don you know what are tenet of faith and how they derived in Islam.
First I am surprised what Taqiyya has to do with worship.
Any tenet of faith which has no Nas-e-Quran is not acceptable in true Islam shia or sunni.
Here you brought up another shia subject(taqiyya) only to make an ass of yourself.
I proved from Quran its perfectly Islamic faith but you did not or try not to understand instead you carried on with your sectarian shia venom with zero comprehension of what I wrote and zero cohesion of what you respond.
Any tenet of faith which has no Nas-e-Quran is not acceptable in true Islam shia or sunni.
Here you brought up another shia subject(taqiyya) only to make an ass of yourself.
I proved from Quran its perfectly Islamic faith but you did not or try not to understand instead you carried on with your sectarian shia venom with zero comprehension of what I wrote and zero cohesion of what you respond.
…………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“The problem here is I am facing a hardcore paindoo.”
:), to be hardcore or softcore paindoo is not at all bad i suppose!
:), to be hardcore or softcore paindoo is not at all bad i suppose!
“It seems like he is communicating in English but hardly make cohesive words.”
aha, i did not know that you were in trouble otherwise i could have tried something else! It is also very much possible that your brain is not able to process correctly as there are always chances of curtain on hearts and minds! ;)You better see a doctor or a “peer”!
aha, i did not know that you were in trouble otherwise i could have tried something else! It is also very much possible that your brain is not able to process correctly as there are always chances of curtain on hearts and minds! ;)You better see a doctor or a “peer”!
“His utterance is like a Zombie making sounds and expecting listeners to make some sense out of it…..to many sounds he thinks will make him to many meanings…his contribution is venom”
haha, what a scene you have elaborated, seems a part of Hollywood movie! This is typical with my Shia fellows that they curse/abuse others day and night otherwise they can’t digest their food as they can’t eat halal things!
This is such a wonderful sect where Sahabah and Wives of Prophet are not spared and are cursed and these losers think that it is a source of worship!
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/cursing-wives-and-sahabah
haha, what a scene you have elaborated, seems a part of Hollywood movie! This is typical with my Shia fellows that they curse/abuse others day and night otherwise they can’t digest their food as they can’t eat halal things!
This is such a wonderful sect where Sahabah and Wives of Prophet are not spared and are cursed and these losers think that it is a source of worship!
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/cursing-wives-and-sahabah
“He is least interested in meaningful thoughtful debate…..its good enough for him that his posts carrying to many words shia with venom not necessary to make sense.”
while only you and your tribe knows what is meaningful and what is thoughtful! Alas, had you been so intelligent you could not have taken the opposite direction to Islam! Where are you heading to Mr. Meaningful and Thoughtful?
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/tahreef/mushtaq
while only you and your tribe knows what is meaningful and what is thoughtful! Alas, had you been so intelligent you could not have taken the opposite direction to Islam! Where are you heading to Mr. Meaningful and Thoughtful?
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/tahreef/mushtaq
“Now Paindoo
Do you know the meanings of “WORSHIP”
Don you know what are tenet of faith and how they derived in Islam.”
Mr. Citizen, there can be so many meanings and of course a Shia meaning will be different than what Islam says as this sect has to take opposite of Islam! what does your sect say about worship? It will be something against Islam like one in above link.
Do you know the meanings of “WORSHIP”
Don you know what are tenet of faith and how they derived in Islam.”
Mr. Citizen, there can be so many meanings and of course a Shia meaning will be different than what Islam says as this sect has to take opposite of Islam! what does your sect say about worship? It will be something against Islam like one in above link.
“First I am surprised what Taqiyya has to do with worship.”
Of course telling lies and cheating is considered holy and as worship in your wonderful sect, just read link in one of my previous posts about Taqiyya!
Of course telling lies and cheating is considered holy and as worship in your wonderful sect, just read link in one of my previous posts about Taqiyya!
“Any tenet of faith which has no Nas-e-Quran is not acceptable in true Islam shia or sunni.”
But Shias create “Nas” where there is not one! This is what they are good at and this is their compulsion too to safeguard their strange faiths!
But Shias create “Nas” where there is not one! This is what they are good at and this is their compulsion too to safeguard their strange faiths!
“Here you brought up another shia subject(taqiyya) only to make an ass of yourself.”
I really wonder if Shais have anything like decency or shame! They inside are quite dirty and filthy although externally look good!
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/mutah/plea
I really wonder if Shais have anything like decency or shame! They inside are quite dirty and filthy although externally look good!
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/mutah/plea
“I proved from Quran its perfectly Islamic faith but you did not or try not to understand instead you carried on with your sectarian shia venom with zero comprehension of what I wrote and zero cohesion of what you respond.”
Oh yeh, you proved it quite well that shiaism is false way! It is good at least you have succeeded in understanding the “truth” and don’t worry about me! Don’t try to hide behind sectarianism etc. to protect false believes of your tribe! Again try to open your mind and see world by getting out of Shiaism cage!
Oh yeh, you proved it quite well that shiaism is false way! It is good at least you have succeeded in understanding the “truth” and don’t worry about me! Don’t try to hide behind sectarianism etc. to protect false believes of your tribe! Again try to open your mind and see world by getting out of Shiaism cage!
………………………………………………………..
jazoo said:
@zaheer
Ignorance and bigotry is the worst disease.
May Allah have mercy on you
May Allah have mercy on you
………………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“Ignorance and bigotry is the worst disease.”
Yes, it is a grave disease and you should find cure for it! ;)
Yes, it is a grave disease and you should find cure for it! ;)
“May Allah have mercy on you”
Aameen.
Aameen.
………………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@zaheer
You are more fanatic than Bin Ladin and more poisoned than Sipah-e-Sahabah and Lashkar-e-Jhangwi.
You are a bigot and hypocrite also when you say shia curse sahaba and wives of Prophet(saw).
You are a bigot and hypocrite also when you say shia curse sahaba and wives of Prophet(saw).
There are poisoned shia fanatic…who are into sectarian stuff like yourself.
Though Quran is very critical of two wives of Prophet and call them with bent heart..they were advised to repent or Allah will give better wives to Prophet…This is not shia stuff.
In the verses of Ahzab Quran talk about some companion of Prophet and call them diseased heart because when they saw army of enemy in huge no. emerged and surrounded them..they say Allah and His Messenger put us to death today..they made a false promise of victory today(nauzubillah).
Now this is again not a shia Book.
So make no mistake cursing some sahabah(as deiseased heart) is the style of Quran and calling some wives (bent heart) its not exclusively shia thing.
You can come up with all the babble now that shia are very smart they can find everything in Quran so and so.
But unfortunately it will not help whatever is in Quran can not be deleted.
Now this is again not a shia Book.
So make no mistake cursing some sahabah(as deiseased heart) is the style of Quran and calling some wives (bent heart) its not exclusively shia thing.
You can come up with all the babble now that shia are very smart they can find everything in Quran so and so.
But unfortunately it will not help whatever is in Quran can not be deleted.
…………………………………………………..
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“You are more fanatic than Bin Ladin and more poisoned than Sipah-e-Sahabah and Lashkar-e-Jhangwi.”
ah, a great remark by a great person! By the way, how much fanatic are those people and groups you have mentioned? Although Shia try to show as if they(Shia) are savior of Muslims against attacks of west etc, which is an utter deception, but at the same time they try to use west’s propaganda to malign others! They are simply opportunists without any principles who can do anything to come into power! One famous example is that they have taken control ofIraq
I don’t support harm to innocents belonging to any religion, sect or group but at the same time Shais need to think what are those factors which lead to creation of groups like Sipah-e-Sahabah and Lashkar-e-Jhangwi etc? It is because of strange faith and practices of your tribe that created such groups! So try to look into yourself before pointing fingers at others! You people incite others through your dirty talks and acts and then mourn and do self beating if others teach you a lesson!
ah, a great remark by a great person! By the way, how much fanatic are those people and groups you have mentioned? Although Shia try to show as if they(Shia) are savior of Muslims against attacks of west etc, which is an utter deception, but at the same time they try to use west’s propaganda to malign others! They are simply opportunists without any principles who can do anything to come into power! One famous example is that they have taken control of
I don’t support harm to innocents belonging to any religion, sect or group but at the same time Shais need to think what are those factors which lead to creation of groups like Sipah-e-Sahabah and Lashkar-e-Jhangwi etc? It is because of strange faith and practices of your tribe that created such groups! So try to look into yourself before pointing fingers at others! You people incite others through your dirty talks and acts and then mourn and do self beating if others teach you a lesson!
“You are a bigot and hypocrite also when you say shia curse sahaba and wives of Prophet(saw).”
Your fatwas or fatwas of your “holy” scholars can’t make anyone “bigot and hypocrite”. What is your authority at the end?
Your fatwas or fatwas of your “holy” scholars can’t make anyone “bigot and hypocrite”. What is your authority at the end?
“There are poisoned shia fanatic…who are into sectarian stuff like yourself.”
I think all those who are aware of real faith, philosophy and practices of Shiaism are natural fanatic! Actually this sect is so much contrary to Islam that one either needs to leave this sect to be a normal Muslim or he/she will have to fight against Muslims!
I think all those who are aware of real faith, philosophy and practices of Shiaism are natural fanatic! Actually this sect is so much contrary to Islam that one either needs to leave this sect to be a normal Muslim or he/she will have to fight against Muslims!
“Though Quran is very critical of two wives of Prophet and call them with bent heart..they were advised to repent or Allah will give better wives to Prophet…This is not shia stuff.”
So your wonderful scholars have found something interesting in this context! It would be most probably once more something out of context and word play! By the way, are your so called scholars whole day playing the word games with each other, have got no other work to do? Tell me the Surah and Ayahs!
So your wonderful scholars have found something interesting in this context! It would be most probably once more something out of context and word play! By the way, are your so called scholars whole day playing the word games with each other, have got no other work to do? Tell me the Surah and Ayahs!
“In the verses of Ahzab Quran talk about some companion of Prophet and call them diseased heart because when they saw army of enemy in huge no. emerged and surrounded them..they say Allah and His Messenger put us to death today..they made a false promise of victory today(nauzubillah).”
Of course, hypocrites always have been part of Islam till today even at the time of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) so nothing surprising or new! In addition to that even the strongest in faith could be shaken for sometime which is natural for a human being! This in anyway does not mean that we start cursing companions especially before our meals or using it to prove one better over others! Give me exact Ayah number!
Of course, hypocrites always have been part of Islam till today even at the time of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) so nothing surprising or new! In addition to that even the strongest in faith could be shaken for sometime which is natural for a human being! This in anyway does not mean that we start cursing companions especially before our meals or using it to prove one better over others! Give me exact Ayah number!
“Now this is again not a shia Book.”
But it could be something out of context or word play or …
But it could be something out of context or word play or …
“So make no mistake cursing some sahabah(as deiseased heart) is the style of Quran and calling some wives (bent heart) its not exclusively shia thing.”
First of all we don’t know who those Sahaba were exactly! Secondly, as i said earlier we don’t have right to curse anyone except those who have been cursed openly with names by Allah and His Messenger(SAW) or Muslims were also asked to curse them! Where are the orders to curse anyone? What does mean bent heartened and which Wives were those? Does it mean that one can curse anyone of them?
First of all we don’t know who those Sahaba were exactly! Secondly, as i said earlier we don’t have right to curse anyone except those who have been cursed openly with names by Allah and His Messenger(SAW) or Muslims were also asked to curse them! Where are the orders to curse anyone? What does mean bent heartened and which Wives were those? Does it mean that one can curse anyone of them?
“You can come up with all the babble now that shia are very smart they can find everything in Quran so and so.”
They are not smart, i never said that, don’t try to make self claims like your tribe does! This is however true that they are most of the time searching for out of context things and word games to safeguard their anti-Islam philosophies, this is their compulsion!
They are not smart, i never said that, don’t try to make self claims like your tribe does! This is however true that they are most of the time searching for out of context things and word games to safeguard their anti-Islam philosophies, this is their compulsion!
“But unfortunately it will not help whatever is in Quran can not be deleted.”
Of course no one can dare to delete something from Quran nor it is possible anymore! But people have been playing with meanings, contexts and explanations of Quran like your wonderful tribe does, which needs to do all that for the sake of its existence and survival!!!
Of course no one can dare to delete something from Quran nor it is possible anymore! But people have been playing with meanings, contexts and explanations of Quran like your wonderful tribe does, which needs to do all that for the sake of its existence and survival!!!
……………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@zaheer
“ah, a great remark by a great person! By the way, how much fanatic are those people and groups you have mentioned?”
I am glad you make this statement…This is like you are giving in.
How much fanatic is Bin Ladin…ask yourself.
You don’t find him fanatic but when it comes to Tahirul Qadri you can write pages of lengthy essay against him…You may be wahabi or whatever you are a hardcore sectarian.
Do not deceive yourself and readers…its not only shia…its any sect other than wahabi you are against them.
I detect this wahabi element in you when you use word “Worship” out of context and now you are questioning how much your wahabi fella Bin Ladin is fanatic.
How much fanatic is Bin Ladin…ask yourself.
You don’t find him fanatic but when it comes to Tahirul Qadri you can write pages of lengthy essay against him…You may be wahabi or whatever you are a hardcore sectarian.
Do not deceive yourself and readers…its not only shia…its any sect other than wahabi you are against them.
I detect this wahabi element in you when you use word “Worship” out of context and now you are questioning how much your wahabi fella Bin Ladin is fanatic.
…………………………………………………………
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“I am glad you make this statement…This is like you are giving in.”
You can infer whatever your great mind tells you to live in the world of dreams and deceptions! :)
You can infer whatever your great mind tells you to live in the world of dreams and deceptions! :)
“How much fanatic is Bin Ladin…ask yourself.”
I have not made any specific image of him because i don’t have enough facts to decide about him! He is a doubtful and hidden personality.
I have not made any specific image of him because i don’t have enough facts to decide about him! He is a doubtful and hidden personality.
“You don’t find him fanatic but when it comes to Tahirul Qadri you can write pages of lengthy essay against him…You may be wahabi or whatever you are a hardcore sectarian.”
It is your conclusion but in reality i did not say whether he is fanatic or not! Well, in recent days i have been trying to know Tahirul Qadri and he seems to be a “great personality” too. I don’t want to write any essay about “your person” great MR. Tahirul Qadri! Wahabi, haha hoho! This is another famous trick of Shias that anyone who resists/reveals their anti-Islamic teachings and ways is labeled as Wahabi! By calling anyone “hardcore sectarian” you can’t safeguard sectarianism and wrongdoings of your tribe! Actually Shia fellows blame others for what they do themselves!
It is your conclusion but in reality i did not say whether he is fanatic or not! Well, in recent days i have been trying to know Tahirul Qadri and he seems to be a “great personality” too. I don’t want to write any essay about “your person” great MR. Tahirul Qadri! Wahabi, haha hoho! This is another famous trick of Shias that anyone who resists/reveals their anti-Islamic teachings and ways is labeled as Wahabi! By calling anyone “hardcore sectarian” you can’t safeguard sectarianism and wrongdoings of your tribe! Actually Shia fellows blame others for what they do themselves!
“Do not deceive yourself and readers…its not only shia…its any sect other than wahabi you are against them.”
It is good that at least you are not deceived and you are taking the “right” path, again thanks for advice and don’t worry about me! :), frankly speaking i don’t believe in any sect because there is no concept of sects in Islam, these were Shais who first created sect to weaken and divide Islam, and for your information i don’t like Wahabis either as i think Shias and Wahabis both have heavily damaged Islam! There was no sect of Prophet Muhammad(saw) and his companions, they were just Muslims!
It is good that at least you are not deceived and you are taking the “right” path, again thanks for advice and don’t worry about me! :), frankly speaking i don’t believe in any sect because there is no concept of sects in Islam, these were Shais who first created sect to weaken and divide Islam, and for your information i don’t like Wahabis either as i think Shias and Wahabis both have heavily damaged Islam! There was no sect of Prophet Muhammad(saw) and his companions, they were just Muslims!
“I detect this wahabi element in you when you use word “Worship” out of context and now you are questioning how much your wahabi fella Bin Ladin is fanatic.”
So you are a detective, cool! Then try to find a job of detective somewhere and leave your sect, it would be much better for you! Defining things out of context, no one can do this work better than Shia fellows as this is the only thing they can do good!
So you are a detective, cool! Then try to find a job of detective somewhere and leave your sect, it would be much better for you! Defining things out of context, no one can do this work better than Shia fellows as this is the only thing they can do good!
…………………………………………………..
jazoo said:
@zaheer
There are many first discords in Islam starting within in the life of Prophet Mohammad(saw). Because Prophet was still alive things cool down and remain as differences.
After the demise of Prophet first discord was when Ali claim his rights to Khilafah on the same basis khilafa was not given to Ansaaar but then things cool down and Ali kept silent for the unity of Ummah.
The real discord started when Usman(ra) issued first NRO in Islam and allow Marwan in Madina whom Prophet had expelled from Madina.
Usman(ra) not only allow Marwan in Madina but gave him key position in his regime and made him top consultant.
Ali used to give advices to all three khalifa most of his advices were taken by Umar(ra) and usually were binding and implemented.
Mostly when Usman(ra) seeks Ali(as) advice…Ali tells on face that you will not follow you will do what Marwan tells you to do.
This inclusion of Marwan in Islamic khilafah is the reason Islam was hijacked by Banu Ummaya….Corrupt people like Mauwia were made katib-e-wahi and given khilafa of Islamic state which reins in for the succeeding 90 years including the dark period of Yazid.
These 90 years are the period when every bad thing happened to Islam.
First thing Banu ummaya did was the revenge of their ancestors killed by the hands of Ali.
If you know pre Islamic history of Jahiliya you would learn how this streak of revenge goes down the lines of descendants….There was no any family of Kuffar and Ummayah whose member was not killed by the hands of Ali during Ghazwaht.
Khawarij were also born in these dark 90 years.
I always avoid discussing history with you because its easy for you to call it bogus or out of context.
Due to your narrow mindedness I try to stick with Quran so you could not say its shia propaganda but unfortunately I don’t have enough water to cool down your ignorant sectarian esteem.
After the demise of Prophet first discord was when Ali claim his rights to Khilafah on the same basis khilafa was not given to Ansaaar but then things cool down and Ali kept silent for the unity of Ummah.
The real discord started when Usman(ra) issued first NRO in Islam and allow Marwan in Madina whom Prophet had expelled from Madina.
Usman(ra) not only allow Marwan in Madina but gave him key position in his regime and made him top consultant.
Ali used to give advices to all three khalifa most of his advices were taken by Umar(ra) and usually were binding and implemented.
Mostly when Usman(ra) seeks Ali(as) advice…Ali tells on face that you will not follow you will do what Marwan tells you to do.
This inclusion of Marwan in Islamic khilafah is the reason Islam was hijacked by Banu Ummaya….Corrupt people like Mauwia were made katib-e-wahi and given khilafa of Islamic state which reins in for the succeeding 90 years including the dark period of Yazid.
These 90 years are the period when every bad thing happened to Islam.
First thing Banu ummaya did was the revenge of their ancestors killed by the hands of Ali.
If you know pre Islamic history of Jahiliya you would learn how this streak of revenge goes down the lines of descendants….There was no any family of Kuffar and Ummayah whose member was not killed by the hands of Ali during Ghazwaht.
Khawarij were also born in these dark 90 years.
I always avoid discussing history with you because its easy for you to call it bogus or out of context.
Due to your narrow mindedness I try to stick with Quran so you could not say its shia propaganda but unfortunately I don’t have enough water to cool down your ignorant sectarian esteem.
…………………………………………………..
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“There are many first discords in Islam starting within in the life of Prophet Mohammad(saw). Because Prophet was still alive things cool down and remain as differences.”
Yes, differences were there among Sahaba also and it is natural part of life but they did not make sects/tribes nor they asked anyone to do so! They remained firm on Islam and they cleared their differences in nice way.
Yes, differences were there among Sahaba also and it is natural part of life but they did not make sects/tribes nor they asked anyone to do so! They remained firm on Islam and they cleared their differences in nice way.
“After the demise of Prophet first discord was when Ali claim his rights to Khilafah on the same basis khilafa was not given to Ansaaar but then things cool down and Ali kept silent for the unity of Ummah.”
So this is the start of imagination trip of Shias that Ali claimed the Caliphate! Where is it mentioned? Actually this is what Shias have forged themselves! They say that Ali(RA) did Taqiyyah although he was against the decision! It is interesting that only Shias could know what actually Ali(RA) was thinking/feeling as Shia scholars were there looking into heart of Ali(RA). Even if we suppose that there was some dispute or disagreement over Caliphate issue, the Sahaba did not ask for creation of sects rather they solved their disagreements in nice way!
So this is the start of imagination trip of Shias that Ali claimed the Caliphate! Where is it mentioned? Actually this is what Shias have forged themselves! They say that Ali(RA) did Taqiyyah although he was against the decision! It is interesting that only Shias could know what actually Ali(RA) was thinking/feeling as Shia scholars were there looking into heart of Ali(RA). Even if we suppose that there was some dispute or disagreement over Caliphate issue, the Sahaba did not ask for creation of sects rather they solved their disagreements in nice way!
“The real discord started when Usman(ra) issued first NRO in Islam and allow Marwan in Madina whom Prophet had expelled from Madina.”
There can be many interpretations of the history! What actually happened and why, is nor easy to judge with confusing and diverse facts! Was Marwan expelled, why, for how much time, why was he recalled etc are difficult to answer.
There can be many interpretations of the history! What actually happened and why, is nor easy to judge with confusing and diverse facts! Was Marwan expelled, why, for how much time, why was he recalled etc are difficult to answer.
“Usman(ra) not only allow Marwan in Madina but gave him key position in his regime and made him top consultant.”
There would be some wisdom behind that decision, according to realities on ground and his decision might be need of time! and what you are describing here could be another fairy tale like many others of Shai fellows as their sect is alive mainly upon fairy tales.
There would be some wisdom behind that decision, according to realities on ground and his decision might be need of time! and what you are describing here could be another fairy tale like many others of Shai fellows as their sect is alive mainly upon fairy tales.
“Ali used to give advices to all three khalifa most of his advices were taken by Umar(ra) and usually were binding and implemented.”
Might be true as Ali(RA) was a very wise and pious person and all first four Caliphs had great understanding and cooperation with one another.
Might be true as Ali(RA) was a very wise and pious person and all first four Caliphs had great understanding and cooperation with one another.
“Mostly when Usman(ra) seeks Ali(as) advice…Ali tells on face that you will not follow you will do what Marwan tells you to do.”
Aha so this is something that has been mentioned in your books but it could be forgery too! It is possible that at some occasion they disagreed but it can not be forever or in every case! Possibility of Usman(RA) being influenced by Marwan is there but how much was he it is difficult to judge!
Aha so this is something that has been mentioned in your books but it could be forgery too! It is possible that at some occasion they disagreed but it can not be forever or in every case! Possibility of Usman(RA) being influenced by Marwan is there but how much was he it is difficult to judge!
“This inclusion of Marwan in Islamic khilafah is the reason Islam was hijacked by Banu Ummaya….Corrupt people like Mauwia were made katib-e-wahi and given khilafa of Islamic state which reins in for the succeeding 90 years including the dark period of Yazid.”
How have you concluded that? What are the proofs for that hijacking? What was the truth and what really happened, can’t be fully judged!
How have you concluded that? What are the proofs for that hijacking? What was the truth and what really happened, can’t be fully judged!
“These 90 years are the period when every bad thing happened to Islam.
First thing Banu ummaya did was the revenge of their ancestors killed by the hands of Ali.”
This seems pure exaggeration, forgery and lie to say that every bad thing happened in that period! Possibility of good and bad decisions is always there but to say every bad thing happened in that period does not make sense! Here you have started typical way of playing with historical facts in one’s own favor!
First thing Banu ummaya did was the revenge of their ancestors killed by the hands of Ali.”
This seems pure exaggeration, forgery and lie to say that every bad thing happened in that period! Possibility of good and bad decisions is always there but to say every bad thing happened in that period does not make sense! Here you have started typical way of playing with historical facts in one’s own favor!
“If you know pre Islamic history of Jahiliya you would learn how this streak of revenge goes down the lines of descendants….There was no any family of Kuffar and Ummayah whose member was not killed by the hands of Ali during Ghazwaht.”
Of course there were many bad habits in pre-Islamic period but it does not mean that it continued in the same way! Well, possibility of taking revenge is there but it can’t be used to prove everything or it can’t be the only factor of happenings!
Of course there were many bad habits in pre-Islamic period but it does not mean that it continued in the same way! Well, possibility of taking revenge is there but it can’t be used to prove everything or it can’t be the only factor of happenings!
“Khawarij were also born in these dark 90 years.”
Many people were born in those times including Shias and it continued later!
Many people were born in those times including Shias and it continued later!
“I always avoid discussing history with you because its easy for you to call it bogus or out of context.”
I personally avoid disputing over history because everyone presents and interprets it in different way. This is the same history which different sects use to prove each other right and wrong! and don’t believe in sects!
I personally avoid disputing over history because everyone presents and interprets it in different way. This is the same history which different sects use to prove each other right and wrong! and don’t believe in sects!
“Due to your narrow mindedness I try to stick with Quran so you could not say its shia propaganda but unfortunately I don’t have enough water to cool down your ignorant sectarian esteem.”
Thanks for your appreciation Mr. Broadminded! Yes stick to Quran and Sunnah that is the best way and avoid propaganda please. Who created sectarianism? These were Shia fellows i suppose!
Thanks for your appreciation Mr. Broadminded! Yes stick to Quran and Sunnah that is the best way and avoid propaganda please. Who created sectarianism? These were Shia fellows i suppose!
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@Zaheer
This time be a gentleman and don’t call it shia propaganda.
I am quoting Sahih Bukhari…You better check the reference before calling it shia propaganda.
I am quoting Sahih Bukhari…You better check the reference before calling it shia propaganda.
Companions choosing the Caliph amongst themselves distinguishes the fact the Holy Prophet did not select Hazrat Abu Bakr (r.a) for the position of “Amir Al Mu’mineen”.
The Ansars/Helpers claimed that the leadership should be given to them due to their service for the sake of islam.
Similarly, the Migrants claimed that they were the most deserving of the leadership.
Different groups were advancing arguments on their own behalf at the Saqifah.
But at last Abu Bakr was chosen but election of Abu Bakr was so unexpected, hasty and careless that ‘Umar(ra) remarked later:
“It was an accident that Abu Bakr became leader. No consultation or exchange of views took place. If anyone in future invites you to do the same again, kill him.”
Ibn Hisham, al-Sirah, Vol. IV, p.308.
See also Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817
See also Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817
The choice of Abu Bakr (r.a) was not pleasing to all, Hazrat Umar said that Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, and Ansar disagreed with them:
“..And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa’da. ‘Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr…”
( Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817)
( Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817)
The seed of disunity was sown and was ready to grow into the wild tree whose fruit caused nothing but pain and destruction to the ummah of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) as the Holy Quran predicts:
“Obey God and the Messenger, and never be drawn into dispute and disagreement, lest you be defeated and your power be scattered to the winds.” (8:49)
Hazrat Abu Bakr was right when he correctly observed the following:
“The swearing of allegiance to me was a mistake; may God protect us from its evil consequences. I myself am fearful of the harm it may cause.” -> Ibn Abi ‘l-Hadid, Sharh, Vol. I, p.132.
“The swearing of allegiance to me was a mistake; may God protect us from its evil consequences. I myself am fearful of the harm it may cause.” -> Ibn Abi ‘l-Hadid, Sharh, Vol. I, p.132.
………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“This time be a gentleman and don’t call it shia propaganda.”
I will be gentleman only if it will not be a Shia propaganda! ;)
I will be gentleman only if it will not be a Shia propaganda! ;)
“I am quoting Sahih Bukhari…You better check the reference before calling it shia propaganda.”
I will check but it would be most probably out of context and given Shia color!
I will check but it would be most probably out of context and given Shia color!
“Companions choosing the Caliph amongst themselves distinguishes the fact the Holy Prophet did not select Hazrat Abu Bakr (r.a) for the position of “Amir Al Mu’mineen”.”
I think Prophet Muhammad(SAW) did not explicitly mention that Abu Bakr(RA) be the first Caliph! WAllah-o-Aalm.
I think Prophet Muhammad(SAW) did not explicitly mention that Abu Bakr(RA) be the first Caliph! WAllah-o-Aalm.
“The Ansars/Helpers claimed that the leadership should be given to them due to their service for the sake of islam.”
They had right to give their opinion as they were part of community but a decision needs be made after mutual consultation and thorough reflection.
They had right to give their opinion as they were part of community but a decision needs be made after mutual consultation and thorough reflection.
“Similarly, the Migrants claimed that they were the most deserving of the leadership.”
They had their views and points!
They had their views and points!
“Different groups were advancing arguments on their own behalf at the Saqifah.”
Through consultation and argumentation matters are solved.
Through consultation and argumentation matters are solved.
“But at last Abu Bakr was chosen but election of Abu Bakr was so unexpected, hasty and careless that ‘Umar(ra) remarked later:”
It might had been unexpected for many and was hasty too because of circumstances but i don’t think it was careless or wrong decision!
It might had been unexpected for many and was hasty too because of circumstances but i don’t think it was careless or wrong decision!
“It was an accident that Abu Bakr became leader. No consultation or exchange of views took place. If anyone in future invites you to do the same again, kill him.”
One can call any action as accident but i don’t think it was any accident rather it was need of the time, was done with understanding and proved to be as right decision late on!
One can call any action as accident but i don’t think it was any accident rather it was need of the time, was done with understanding and proved to be as right decision late on!
“Ibn Hisham, al-Sirah, Vol. IV, p.308.
See also Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817″
Can’t say much about first book but have read the Hadith of Bukhari and it shows that it was a difficult decision but was decided rightly at the end!
See also Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817″
Can’t say much about first book but have read the Hadith of Bukhari and it shows that it was a difficult decision but was decided rightly at the end!
“The choice of Abu Bakr (r.a) was not pleasing to all, Hazrat Umar said that Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, and Ansar disagreed with them:”
They were arguing and had different views; it was natural thing, some agreed others did not! But later majority of them agreed to the decision! But Shias got an excuse to create a new sect and divide Muslims as if they were waiting for some excuse!
They were arguing and had different views; it was natural thing, some agreed others did not! But later majority of them agreed to the decision! But Shias got an excuse to create a new sect and divide Muslims as if they were waiting for some excuse!
“..And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa’da. ‘Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr…”
( Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817)
I have read the Hadith and it shows that it was a tough time but final decision was quite right.
( Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.817)
I have read the Hadith and it shows that it was a tough time but final decision was quite right.
“The seed of disunity was sown and was ready to grow into the wild tree whose fruit caused nothing but pain and destruction to the ummah of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) as the Holy Quran predicts:”
I think what happened was a natural thing but some mischievous people tried to create divide and when they failed in that they they tried to give many different colors to the happening and they are doing it till today! This trap of conflict and divide was destroyed by the understanding, wisdom and unity of Muslims especially of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali at that time! However, Shias wrongly created a sect as if they were looking for an excuse to grow a wild tree of disunity and destruction of Ummah!
I think what happened was a natural thing but some mischievous people tried to create divide and when they failed in that they they tried to give many different colors to the happening and they are doing it till today! This trap of conflict and divide was destroyed by the understanding, wisdom and unity of Muslims especially of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali at that time! However, Shias wrongly created a sect as if they were looking for an excuse to grow a wild tree of disunity and destruction of Ummah!
“Obey God and the Messenger, and never be drawn into dispute and disagreement, lest you be defeated and your power be scattered to the winds.” (8:49)
8:49 means
“When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts was a disease (of disbelief) said: “These people (Muslims) are deceived by their religion.” But whoever puts his trust in Allah, then surely, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.”
Have you made a mistake in giving reference?
Anyhow, these were the Shias who created the divisions among Ummah and are doing till today! They need to correct themselves!
“Hazrat Abu Bakr was right when he correctly observed the following:
“The swearing of allegiance to me was a mistake; may God protect us from its evil consequences. I myself am fearful of the harm it may cause.” -> Ibn Abi ‘l-Hadid, Sharh, Vol. I, p.132.”
“The swearing of allegiance to me was a mistake; may God protect us from its evil consequences. I myself am fearful of the harm it may cause.” -> Ibn Abi ‘l-Hadid, Sharh, Vol. I, p.132.”
It is not an authentic book of Hadith! It is rather a Shia book and forgery which can’t be trusted!
………………………………………………
jazoo said:
@Zaheer
Now I will not quote Quran or hadith because you may call it shia propaganda.
Lets talk about philosophy of shia and sunni.
First thing sunnis are equally responsible for division of ummah.
Almost all the sunni Imams and sunni hadith collectors are persian or non Arabic on the contrary all the shia Imams are Arabic and from the family of Prophet.
So if there was a conspiracy then it had to be an outside conspiracy.
I don’t agree that sunni Imams or hadith collectors were part of conspiracy or division.
Conspirators were power hungry oppressors banu ummayah and Bani Abbas who ruled for hundreds of years after khilafah of Imam Ali.
The very first Madrasa or Islamic university was opened by 5th Shia Imam Mohammad Baqar(as) which reached to its peak during era of Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq(as) when its strength becomes 4000 students at one time which is huge if you compare the total population of that time and ratio of illiterate population.
All the sunni Imams including Imam Abu Hanifa either were pupil of Imam Jafar in that University or pupil of his pupil.
And none of them were conspirators or dividers…Imam Abu Hanif said if I had not my two precious years under tutelage of Imam Jafar I would have been perished.
The word sunni and word shia are easy to say but difficult to follow.
Sunni means one who try to follow Prophet’s sunna which if accomplished is real Islam.
The word shia means one who follow and love Ali…it again is derived from Ali’s absolute dedication to Prophet’s sunna.
Ali was given first chance to become third khalifah on the conditions that he will follow sunna of Prophet and sunna of Sheikain…Ali refused to follow sunna of sheikain so Uthman(ra) was chosen third khalifa who pledged to follow sunna of sheikain which he broke immediately by calling Mrawan to Madiona who all the two khalifa refused to allow in Madina.
So in the beginning it was clear that sunna of Prophet is not followed in its true essence and those who believe Ali is the truer carrier of Prophetic sunna were called Shian-e-Ali.
Announcement of Ali as Mawla of momins by Prophet under divine command caused a great discomfort in companions.
Now you may blame Allah was the cause of division of ummah.
Lets talk about philosophy of shia and sunni.
First thing sunnis are equally responsible for division of ummah.
Almost all the sunni Imams and sunni hadith collectors are persian or non Arabic on the contrary all the shia Imams are Arabic and from the family of Prophet.
So if there was a conspiracy then it had to be an outside conspiracy.
I don’t agree that sunni Imams or hadith collectors were part of conspiracy or division.
Conspirators were power hungry oppressors banu ummayah and Bani Abbas who ruled for hundreds of years after khilafah of Imam Ali.
The very first Madrasa or Islamic university was opened by 5th Shia Imam Mohammad Baqar(as) which reached to its peak during era of Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq(as) when its strength becomes 4000 students at one time which is huge if you compare the total population of that time and ratio of illiterate population.
All the sunni Imams including Imam Abu Hanifa either were pupil of Imam Jafar in that University or pupil of his pupil.
And none of them were conspirators or dividers…Imam Abu Hanif said if I had not my two precious years under tutelage of Imam Jafar I would have been perished.
The word sunni and word shia are easy to say but difficult to follow.
Sunni means one who try to follow Prophet’s sunna which if accomplished is real Islam.
The word shia means one who follow and love Ali…it again is derived from Ali’s absolute dedication to Prophet’s sunna.
Ali was given first chance to become third khalifah on the conditions that he will follow sunna of Prophet and sunna of Sheikain…Ali refused to follow sunna of sheikain so Uthman(ra) was chosen third khalifa who pledged to follow sunna of sheikain which he broke immediately by calling Mrawan to Madiona who all the two khalifa refused to allow in Madina.
So in the beginning it was clear that sunna of Prophet is not followed in its true essence and those who believe Ali is the truer carrier of Prophetic sunna were called Shian-e-Ali.
Announcement of Ali as Mawla of momins by Prophet under divine command caused a great discomfort in companions.
Now you may blame Allah was the cause of division of ummah.
………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“Now I will not quote Quran or hadith because you may call it shia propaganda.”
cause in that area your sect can’t be defended! ;)How a thing could be proven from Quran and Hadith which is not mentioned there?
cause in that area your sect can’t be defended! ;)How a thing could be proven from Quran and Hadith which is not mentioned there?
“Lets talk about philosophy of shia and sunni.”
So now want to turn to philosophy! You seem to keep me engaged and are waiting for some mistake to blackmail me! :) anyhow no problem let us take it forward…
So now want to turn to philosophy! You seem to keep me engaged and are waiting for some mistake to blackmail me! :) anyhow no problem let us take it forward…
“First thing sunnis are equally responsible for division of ummah.”
No! I think major part was played by Shias cause they first created a group and rest were left with no choice except to take a way. There might be some mistake of Sunnies too but major role for division was played by Shias!
For example if there is one litre of water and someone takes few millilitres out of it then rest is no more a litre! Rest of the Muslims, after Shias created their group, were left with one out of two choices: either they call themselves Muslims and in that case Shias would have been labeled as infidels or they give themselves a new name and they decided to being called Sunnies i think!
No! I think major part was played by Shias cause they first created a group and rest were left with no choice except to take a way. There might be some mistake of Sunnies too but major role for division was played by Shias!
For example if there is one litre of water and someone takes few millilitres out of it then rest is no more a litre! Rest of the Muslims, after Shias created their group, were left with one out of two choices: either they call themselves Muslims and in that case Shias would have been labeled as infidels or they give themselves a new name and they decided to being called Sunnies i think!
“Almost all the sunni Imams and sunni hadith collectors are persian or non Arabic on the contrary all the shia Imams are Arabic and from the family of Prophet.”
Well i can’t say about that! I think that Shias from very first day hijacked the Ahlebayt and they played with their innocence and sincerity! Not only that they have been using their names and association till today for the vested interests and anti-Islam activities! All these people were pure Muslims but Shias have given them different labels and proved them as Shias which they were not!
Well i can’t say about that! I think that Shias from very first day hijacked the Ahlebayt and they played with their innocence and sincerity! Not only that they have been using their names and association till today for the vested interests and anti-Islam activities! All these people were pure Muslims but Shias have given them different labels and proved them as Shias which they were not!
“So if there was a conspiracy then it had to be an outside conspiracy.”
There is possibility of external conspiracy!
There is possibility of external conspiracy!
“I don’t agree that sunni Imams or hadith collectors were part of conspiracy or division.”
Then you people need to follow Sunni Imams and Hadith collectors why have you created your own hadith books which are either copies/modifications of original Ahadith or are forgeries?
Then you people need to follow Sunni Imams and Hadith collectors why have you created your own hadith books which are either copies/modifications of original Ahadith or are forgeries?
“Conspirators were power hungry oppressors banu ummayah and Bani Abbas who ruled for hundreds of years after khilafah of Imam Ali.”
I can’t say about it that who was responsible for what! There are many different possibilities! There can be fault of others too but Shias were those who always misused the family members of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) because later were very innocent and fair people!
I can’t say about it that who was responsible for what! There are many different possibilities! There can be fault of others too but Shias were those who always misused the family members of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) because later were very innocent and fair people!
“The very first Madrasa or Islamic university was opened by 5th Shia Imam Mohammad Baqar(as) which reached to its peak during era of Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq(as) when its strength becomes 4000 students at one time which is huge if you compare the total population of that time and ratio of illiterate population.”
As i told the family members and inheritors of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) were no Shias and were strong Muslims! You people have either falsely given them different belongings and identities or played with their innocence!
As i told the family members and inheritors of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) were no Shias and were strong Muslims! You people have either falsely given them different belongings and identities or played with their innocence!
“All the sunni Imams including Imam Abu Hanifa either were pupil of Imam Jafar in that University or pupil of his pupil.”
It might be true but in any case Imam Abu Hanifa did not follow Shia direction! What was the reason for that?
It might be true but in any case Imam Abu Hanifa did not follow Shia direction! What was the reason for that?
“And none of them were conspirators or dividers…Imam Abu Hanif said if I had not my two precious years under tutelage of Imam Jafar I would have been perished.”
Where did he mention that and what was context of it?
Where did he mention that and what was context of it?
“The word sunni and word shia are easy to say but difficult to follow.”
It applies to all systems! I personally don’t believe in sects, i believe in Islam only.
It applies to all systems! I personally don’t believe in sects, i believe in Islam only.
“Sunni means one who try to follow Prophet’s sunna which if accomplished is real Islam.”
I think they are closest to the real Islam.
I think they are closest to the real Islam.
“The word shia means one who follow and love Ali…it again is derived from Ali’s absolute dedication to Prophet’s sunna.”
Actually every Muslim loves Ali but what Shia do mean from his love and obedience is very tricky and strange! Shias have affiliated and connected so many things which were not even said or done by Ali(RA). In reality Ali and his sons only followed Islam and not Shiaism etc!
Actually every Muslim loves Ali but what Shia do mean from his love and obedience is very tricky and strange! Shias have affiliated and connected so many things which were not even said or done by Ali(RA). In reality Ali and his sons only followed Islam and not Shiaism etc!
“Ali was given first chance to become third khalifah on the conditions that he will follow sunna of Prophet and sunna of Sheikain…”
I am not aware of that condition! Where is it mentioned, will be somewhere in Shia books.
I am not aware of that condition! Where is it mentioned, will be somewhere in Shia books.
“Ali refused to follow sunna of sheikain so Uthman(ra) was chosen third khalifa who pledged to follow sunna of sheikain which he broke immediately by calling Mrawan to Madiona who all the two khalifa refused to allow in Madina.”
Again what is the reference? Whether Uthman(RA) did anything wrong is very difficult to judge!
Again what is the reference? Whether Uthman(RA) did anything wrong is very difficult to judge!
“So in the beginning it was clear that sunna of Prophet is not followed in its true essence and those who believe Ali is the truer carrier of Prophetic sunna were called Shian-e-Ali.”
Ah what a great thing has been discovered by you people! I think all of them, especially first four caliphs, followed Quran and Hadith and what was derived out of it. They might have difference of opinions though which is natural.
Ah what a great thing has been discovered by you people! I think all of them, especially first four caliphs, followed Quran and Hadith and what was derived out of it. They might have difference of opinions though which is natural.
“Announcement of Ali as Mawla of momins by Prophet under divine command caused a great discomfort in companions.”
Reference and context please?
Reference and context please?
“Now you may blame Allah was the cause of division of ummah.”
Allah(SWT) is not blamed for anything! Divisions were created by Satan and mischievers within Muslims and externals!
Allah(SWT) is not blamed for anything! Divisions were created by Satan and mischievers within Muslims and externals!
And Allah(SWT) knows best.
………………………………………………
jazoo said:
@zaheer
Theres alot of poison in you about term shia without knowing what it stands for.
Shia adhere to Prophet’s sunna that makes them different from sunni.
You may call it coincidence but it happened miraculously that in His very first speech Prophet announced Ali is his successor and then His last speech at Hajtul wida he also announced Ali as His successor. Now those who believe in this consistent preaching of Prophet are true sunni(shia) or true follower of His sunna.
Shia adhere to Prophet’s sunna that makes them different from sunni.
You may call it coincidence but it happened miraculously that in His very first speech Prophet announced Ali is his successor and then His last speech at Hajtul wida he also announced Ali as His successor. Now those who believe in this consistent preaching of Prophet are true sunni(shia) or true follower of His sunna.
Narrated Ibn Humayed, from Salamah, from Muhammad Ibn Is’haq, from Abd al-
Ghaffar Ibn al-Qasim, from al-Minhal Ibn Amr, from abdallah Ibn al-Harith
Ibn Nawfal Ibn al-Harith Ibn Abd al-Muttalib, from Abdallah Ibn Abbas, from
Ali Ibn Abi Talib:
Ghaffar Ibn al-Qasim, from al-Minhal Ibn Amr, from abdallah Ibn al-Harith
Ibn Nawfal Ibn al-Harith Ibn Abd al-Muttalib, from Abdallah Ibn Abbas, from
Ali Ibn Abi Talib:
When the verse “And warn your close tribe (Quran 26:214)” was revealed
to the prophet, he called me and said to me, “Ali, God has commanded
me to warn my tribe of near kindred. I was troubled by this, since I
knew that when I discuss the matter to them they would respond in a
way which I would not like. I kept silent until Gabriel came to me and
said “If you do not do what you are commanded, your Lord will punish
you.” So prepare a measure of wheat for us, add a leg of lamb to it,
fill a large bowl of milk for us, and then invite sons of Abd al-
Muttalib for me so that I may speak to them what I have been commanded
to tell them.”
to the prophet, he called me and said to me, “Ali, God has commanded
me to warn my tribe of near kindred. I was troubled by this, since I
knew that when I discuss the matter to them they would respond in a
way which I would not like. I kept silent until Gabriel came to me and
said “If you do not do what you are commanded, your Lord will punish
you.” So prepare a measure of wheat for us, add a leg of lamb to it,
fill a large bowl of milk for us, and then invite sons of Abd al-
Muttalib for me so that I may speak to them what I have been commanded
to tell them.”
I did what he had told me to do. At that time they numbered forty men
more or less, including his uncles Abu Talib, Hamzah, al-Abbas, and
Abu Lahab. When they had gathered together, he called me to bring the
food which I had prepared. I brought it, and when I put it down,
prophet took a piece of meat, broke it with his teeth, put it in the
dish. Then he said, “Take in the name of God.” They ate until they
could eat no more, and yet the food was as it had been. I swear by
God, in whose hand Ali’s soul rests, that a single man could have
eaten the amount of food which I prepared for them. Then he said “Give
them something to drink.” So I brought them the bowl and they drank
from it until they became full, and I swear by God that one man could
have drunk that amount. When prophet wanted to speak to them, Abu
Lahab interrupted him and said “Your host has long since bewitched
you.” Then they dispersed without the prophet speaking to them.
more or less, including his uncles Abu Talib, Hamzah, al-Abbas, and
Abu Lahab. When they had gathered together, he called me to bring the
food which I had prepared. I brought it, and when I put it down,
prophet took a piece of meat, broke it with his teeth, put it in the
dish. Then he said, “Take in the name of God.” They ate until they
could eat no more, and yet the food was as it had been. I swear by
God, in whose hand Ali’s soul rests, that a single man could have
eaten the amount of food which I prepared for them. Then he said “Give
them something to drink.” So I brought them the bowl and they drank
from it until they became full, and I swear by God that one man could
have drunk that amount. When prophet wanted to speak to them, Abu
Lahab interrupted him and said “Your host has long since bewitched
you.” Then they dispersed without the prophet speaking to them.
On the following day he said to me “Ali, this man interrupted what I
wanted to say so that people dispersed before I could speak to them.
Prepare the same food for us as you did yesterday, and invite them
here.” I did this, and brought them food when he called me. He did as
he had done the other day, and they ate until they could eat no more.
Then he said, “Bring the bowl,” and they drank until they could drink
no more.
wanted to say so that people dispersed before I could speak to them.
Prepare the same food for us as you did yesterday, and invite them
here.” I did this, and brought them food when he called me. He did as
he had done the other day, and they ate until they could eat no more.
Then he said, “Bring the bowl,” and they drank until they could drink
no more.
Then he spoke to them, saying, “Banu Abd al-Muttalib, I don’t know of
any young man among Arabs who has brought for his people something
better than what I have brought to you. I bring the best of this world
and the world after, since God has commanded me to summon you to him.
Which of you will aid me in this matter, so that he will be my
brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you?” They
all held back, and even though I was the youngest, I said “I will be
your helper, O’ prophet of God.” He put his hand on the back of my
neck and said “This is my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor
(Caliph) among you, so listen to him and obey him.” They rose up
laughing and saying to Abu Talib, “He has commanded you to obey your
son and to obey him!”
References
1) History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 88-91
(2) History of Ibn Athir, v2, p62
(3) History of Ibn Asakir, v1, p85
(4) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v5, p97
(5) Tafsir al-Khazin, by Ala’uddin al-Shafi’i, v3, p371
(6) Shawahid al-Tanzil, by al-Hasakani, v1, p371
(7) Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v15, p15, pp 100-117
(8) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, v1, p311
(9) Dala’il al-Nabawiyyah, by al-Baihaqi, v1, pp 428-430
(10) al-Mukhtasar, by Abul Fida, v1, pp 116-117
(11) Life of Muhammad, by Hasan Haykal, p104 (First Arabic Edition only. In
the second edition the last sentence of Prophet is deleted.)
(12) Tahdhib al-Athar, v4, pp 62-63.
any young man among Arabs who has brought for his people something
better than what I have brought to you. I bring the best of this world
and the world after, since God has commanded me to summon you to him.
Which of you will aid me in this matter, so that he will be my
brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor (Caliph) among you?” They
all held back, and even though I was the youngest, I said “I will be
your helper, O’ prophet of God.” He put his hand on the back of my
neck and said “This is my brother, my executor (Wasi), my successor
(Caliph) among you, so listen to him and obey him.” They rose up
laughing and saying to Abu Talib, “He has commanded you to obey your
son and to obey him!”
References
1) History of al-Tabari, English version, v6, pp 88-91
(2) History of Ibn Athir, v2, p62
(3) History of Ibn Asakir, v1, p85
(4) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v5, p97
(5) Tafsir al-Khazin, by Ala’uddin al-Shafi’i, v3, p371
(6) Shawahid al-Tanzil, by al-Hasakani, v1, p371
(7) Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v15, p15, pp 100-117
(8) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, v1, p311
(9) Dala’il al-Nabawiyyah, by al-Baihaqi, v1, pp 428-430
(10) al-Mukhtasar, by Abul Fida, v1, pp 116-117
(11) Life of Muhammad, by Hasan Haykal, p104 (First Arabic Edition only. In
the second edition the last sentence of Prophet is deleted.)
(12) Tahdhib al-Athar, v4, pp 62-63.
After returning from hajtul wida The Messenger of Allah made a lengthy speech, following is the excerpt from his full speech:
“It seems the time approached when I
shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am
leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them,
you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my
progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each
other until they come to me by the Pool (ofParadise ).”
shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am
leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them,
you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my
progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each
other until they come to me by the Pool (of
Then the Messenger of Allah continued:
“Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?” People cried and answered: “Yes, O’ Messenger of God.” Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the
hand of Ali and said:
“Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.”
References
(1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
(3) Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
(5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370,
372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
(6) Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
(7) Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
(11) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
(13) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
(14) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
(15) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
(16) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319,
v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
(17) Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn
al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas,
Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,…
(18) Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
(19) Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
(20) al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word “ayn” (Ali), v2, p462
(21) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
(22) al-Mirqat, v5, p568
(23) al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
(24) Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
(25) Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217
(26) Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297
“Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?” People cried and answered: “Yes, O’ Messenger of God.” Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the
hand of Ali and said:
“Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.”
References
(1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
(3) Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 4,21
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
(5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370,
372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
(6) Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
(7) Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
(11) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
(13) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
(14) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
(15) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
(16) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319,
v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
(17) Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn
al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas,
Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,…
(18) Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
(19) Hilyatul Awliya’, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu’aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
(20) al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word “ayn” (Ali), v2, p462
(21) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
(22) al-Mirqat, v5, p568
(23) al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
(24) Dhaka’ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
(25) Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217
(26) Yanabi’ al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
On the day of Ghadir the Messenger of Allah summoned the people toward Ali and said:
“Ali is the MAWLA of whom I am MAWLA.
” The news spread quickly all over urban and rural areas. When Harith Ibn Nu’man al-
Fahri (or Nadhr Ibn Harith according to another tradition) came to know of it, he rode his camel and came toMedina
“You commanded us to testify that there is no deity but Allah and that you are the
Messenger of Allah. We obeyed you.
You ordered us to perform the prayers five times a day and we obeyed.
You ordered us to observe fasts during the month of Ramadhan and we obeyed.
Then you commanded us to offer pilgrimage toMecca
But you are not satisfied with all this and you raised your cousin by your hand and imposed him upon us as our master by saying `Ali is the MAWLA of whom I am MAWLA.’
Is this imposition from Allah or from You?”
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said : “By Allah who is the only deity! This is from Allah, the Mighty and the Glorious.”
” The news spread quickly all over urban and rural areas. When Harith Ibn Nu’man al-
Fahri (or Nadhr Ibn Harith according to another tradition) came to know of it, he rode his camel and came to
“You commanded us to testify that there is no deity but Allah and that you are the
Messenger of Allah. We obeyed you.
You ordered us to perform the prayers five times a day and we obeyed.
You ordered us to observe fasts during the month of Ramadhan and we obeyed.
Then you commanded us to offer pilgrimage to
But you are not satisfied with all this and you raised your cousin by your hand and imposed him upon us as our master by saying `Ali is the MAWLA of whom I am MAWLA.’
Is this imposition from Allah or from You?”
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said : “By Allah who is the only deity! This is from Allah, the Mighty and the Glorious.”
On hearing this Harith turned back and proceeded towards his she-camel
saying:
“O Allah! If what Muhammad said is correct then fling on us a
stone from the sky and subject us to severe pain and torture.”
saying:
“O Allah! If what Muhammad said is correct then fling on us a
stone from the sky and subject us to severe pain and torture.”
He had not reached his she-camel when Allah, who is above all defects
flung at him a stone which struck him on his head, penetrated his body
and passed out through his lower body and left him dead. It was on
this occasion that Allah, the exalted, caused to descend the following
verses:
flung at him a stone which struck him on his head, penetrated his body
and passed out through his lower body and left him dead. It was on
this occasion that Allah, the exalted, caused to descend the following
verses:
“A questioner questioned about the punishment to fall. For the
disbelievers there is nothing to avert it, from Allah the Lord of
the Ascent.” (70:1-3)
disbelievers there is nothing to avert it, from Allah the Lord of
the Ascent.” (70:1-3)
references:
(1) Tafsir al-Tha’labi, by Is’haq al-Tha’labi, commentary of verse 70:1-3
from two chain of narrators.
(2) Noor al-Absar, by Shablanji, p4
(3) al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p25
(4) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v2, p214
(5) Arjah al-Matalib
(6) Nazhat al-Mujalis from al-Qurtubi
(1) Tafsir al-Tha’labi, by Is’haq al-Tha’labi, commentary of verse 70:1-3
from two chain of narrators.
(2) Noor al-Absar, by Shablanji, p4
(3) al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p25
(4) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v2, p214
(5) Arjah al-Matalib
(6) Nazhat al-Mujalis from al-Qurtubi
………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“Theres alot of poison in you about term shia without knowing what it stands for.”
I don’t see much positive in Shia either in term or sect or in its followers. It is serving the purpose of confusions and divisions of Muslims and that is what was plan of its manufacturers!
I don’t see much positive in Shia either in term or sect or in its followers. It is serving the purpose of confusions and divisions of Muslims and that is what was plan of its manufacturers!
“Shia adhere to Prophet’s sunna that makes them different from sunni.”
No! they do opposite! They adopt almost everything different to Islam starting from Kalimah, Adhan, Wudu, Salah and so on! and also they have created their own books of Hadith and they have their own tenets of faith and even doubt Quran! By the way what thing you follow from Islam?
No! they do opposite! They adopt almost everything different to Islam starting from Kalimah, Adhan, Wudu, Salah and so on! and also they have created their own books of Hadith and they have their own tenets of faith and even doubt Quran! By the way what thing you follow from Islam?
“You may call it coincidence but it happened miraculously that in His very first speech Prophet announced Ali is his successor and then His last speech at Hajtul wida he also announced Ali as His successor.”
It is very strange that we don’t get that information from any most authentic books of Hadith! In his first speech not many people were present but in his last address there were thousands and still it is not mentioned in authentic books of hadith anything in this context! Prophet(SAW) praised his Sahaba especially first four and why will they then go against the will of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) if he had explicitly declared his will? It seems another forgery and fairy tale of Shia fellows!
“Now those who believe in this consistent preaching of Prophet are true sunni(shia) or true follower of His sunna.”
This does not seem to be anything consistent otherwise first four Caliphs definitely had followed it! Actually you people need some conflicts or excuses to sustain your sect and beliefs, it is your compulsion. Which Sunnah do you people follow i mean which books?
It is very strange that we don’t get that information from any most authentic books of Hadith! In his first speech not many people were present but in his last address there were thousands and still it is not mentioned in authentic books of hadith anything in this context! Prophet(SAW) praised his Sahaba especially first four and why will they then go against the will of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) if he had explicitly declared his will? It seems another forgery and fairy tale of Shia fellows!
“Now those who believe in this consistent preaching of Prophet are true sunni(shia) or true follower of His sunna.”
This does not seem to be anything consistent otherwise first four Caliphs definitely had followed it! Actually you people need some conflicts or excuses to sustain your sect and beliefs, it is your compulsion. Which Sunnah do you people follow i mean which books?
You have narrated two “ahadith” and so many references! I can’t go through and check those books so can’t say what exactly is written there, what is the context and what is authenticity of those books! Well most of them are not among authentic books! In second hadith, if it really is hadith, are you talking about speech of Prophet(SAW) at Hajja-tul-Wida or after it? Where was it delivered? Again so many references! It seems you just wanted to pressurize, busy and impress me through so many references! Well i have similar thoughts about them as i have for the first set of references!
………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
” On the day of Ghadir the Messenger of Allah summoned the people toward Ali and said:
“Ali is the MAWLA of whom I am MAWLA.” The news spread quickly all over urban and rural areas. When Harith Ibn Nu’man al-Fahri (or Nadhr Ibn Harith according to another tradition) came to know of it, he rode his camel….”
Once more such an important aspect and hadith is missing from the main books of Ahadith although even an Ayah from Quraan has been attached to this event! Companions of Prophet(SAW) were so God conscious then how could they disobey such an order and even one person is believed to have been punished for disobeying it? Had they disobeyed such an order they could have also been punished for that! Now you may bring another theory that their punishment was delayed but theories could be endless!
“references:…”
Not really trustful and strong one. No commentary from any big scholar of Islam about it, only Amazon is giving description…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir_al-Thalabi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir_al-Thalabi
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@zaheer
Actually this discussion is happening because you started shia bashing.
I am not sectarian and against any sect specially sunni.
We ought to be strong and united because enemy is much stronger than your imaginations.
Faisal Raza Abdi is shia who never get tired of calling Zardari “My leader”…I am also shia but theres a big difference…You can not measure all shias with single yardstick thats SLANDER.
I am not sectarian and against any sect specially sunni.
We ought to be strong and united because enemy is much stronger than your imaginations.
Faisal Raza Abdi is shia who never get tired of calling Zardari “My leader”…I am also shia but theres a big difference…You can not measure all shias with single yardstick thats SLANDER.
Because you asked again…I will not bring another theory…I will post some history not about who was being punished and who was not…but who was reminded and how.
About the Battle of Camel, al-Hakim and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and others
recorded that:
recorded that:
We were in the camp of Ali on the day of Battle of Camel, where Ali
sent for Talha to talk to him (before the beginning of war). Talha
came forward, and Ali told him: I adjure you by Allah! Didn’t you hear
the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) when he said: `Whoever I am his
MAWLA, this Ali is his MAWLA. O God, love whoever loves him, and be
hostile to whoever is hostile to him’?” Talha replied: “Yes.” Ali
said: “Then why do you want to fight me?”
sent for Talha to talk to him (before the beginning of war). Talha
came forward, and Ali told him: I adjure you by Allah! Didn’t you hear
the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) when he said: `Whoever I am his
MAWLA, this Ali is his MAWLA. O God, love whoever loves him, and be
hostile to whoever is hostile to him’?” Talha replied: “Yes.” Ali
said: “Then why do you want to fight me?”
reference:
- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 169,371
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, on the authority of Ilyas al-Dhabbi
- Muruj al-Dhahab, by al-Mas’udi, v4, p321
- Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p107
- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 169,371
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, on the authority of Ilyas al-Dhabbi
- Muruj al-Dhahab, by al-Mas’udi, v4, p321
- Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v9, p107
Ahmad Ibn Hanbal recorded in his Musnad that:
Abu Tufayl narrated that He (Ali) gathered the people in the plain of
Rahbah (on year 35 AH) and adjured in the name of Allah every Muslim
male present there who had heard the proclamation of al-Ghadir from
the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) to stand up and testify what they had
heard from the Messenger on the Day of Ghadir. Thereupon thirty (30)
men stood up and gave evidence that the Prophet grasped Ali’s hand and
said to the audience: “He (Ali) has superior authority over those who
believe me to have superiority over their lives. O Allah! Love him who
loves him and hate him who hates him.” Abu Tufayl says that it was in
a state of great mental agitation that he left the plain of Rahbah,
for the Muslim masses had not complied with the tradition. He
therefore called on Zaid Ibn Arqam and told him what he heard from
Ali. Zaid told him not to entertain any doubt about it for he himself
had heard the Messenger of Allah uttering those words.
Rahbah (on year 35 AH) and adjured in the name of Allah every Muslim
male present there who had heard the proclamation of al-Ghadir from
the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) to stand up and testify what they had
heard from the Messenger on the Day of Ghadir. Thereupon thirty (30)
men stood up and gave evidence that the Prophet grasped Ali’s hand and
said to the audience: “He (Ali) has superior authority over those who
believe me to have superiority over their lives. O Allah! Love him who
loves him and hate him who hates him.” Abu Tufayl says that it was in
a state of great mental agitation that he left the plain of Rahbah,
for the Muslim masses had not complied with the tradition. He
therefore called on Zaid Ibn Arqam and told him what he heard from
Ali. Zaid told him not to entertain any doubt about it for he himself
had heard the Messenger of Allah uttering those words.
reference: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p370
also:
Abd al-Rahman Ibn Abu Laylah said: I witnessed Ali administering an
oath to the people in the plain of Rahbah. Ali said: “I adjure those
of you in the name of Allah who heard the Messenger of Allah on the
day of Ghadir saying `Ali is the Mawla of whom I am Mawla’ to stand
up and to testify. He who was not an eyewitness doesn’t need to stand
up.” Thereupon twelve (12) such companions who had participated in
the Battle of Badr stood up. The occasion is still fresh in my memory.
oath to the people in the plain of Rahbah. Ali said: “I adjure those
of you in the name of Allah who heard the Messenger of Allah on the
day of Ghadir saying `Ali is the Mawla of whom I am Mawla’ to stand
up and to testify. He who was not an eyewitness doesn’t need to stand
up.” Thereupon twelve (12) such companions who had participated in
the Battle of Badr stood up. The occasion is still fresh in my memory.
references:
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p119, see also v5, p366
- Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 21,103, narrated similar to above on the
authority of three others: Umayah Ibn Sa’d, Zaid Ibn yathigh, and
Sa’id Ibn Wahab.
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p119, see also v5, p366
- Khasa’is, by al-Nisa’i, pp 21,103, narrated similar to above on the
authority of three others: Umayah Ibn Sa’d, Zaid Ibn yathigh, and
Sa’id Ibn Wahab.
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
Now something about who was being punished.
It is also recorded that:
When Ali said to Anas: “Why don’t you stand up and testify what you
heard from the Messenger of Allah on the day of Ghadir?” He answered,
“O Amir al-Mumineen! I have grown old and do not remember.” Thereupon
Ali said: “May Allah mark you with a white spot (of leprosy; Alphosis)
unconcealable with your turban, if you are intentionally withholding
the truth.” And before Anas got up from his place he bore a large
white spot on his face, Thereafter Anas used to say, “I am under the
curse of the righteous servant of Allah.”
heard from the Messenger of Allah on the day of Ghadir?” He answered,
“O Amir al-Mumineen! I have grown old and do not remember.” Thereupon
Ali said: “May Allah mark you with a white spot (of leprosy; Alphosis)
unconcealable with your turban, if you are intentionally withholding
the truth.” And before Anas got up from his place he bore a large
white spot on his face, Thereafter Anas used to say, “I am under the
curse of the righteous servant of Allah.”
references:
(1) al-Ma’arif, by Ibn Qutaybah, p14, in the account of Anas among disabled
persons.
(2) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p199, where he testifies to the above
anecdote, as he says : “All stood up except three persons who came
under the curse of Ali.”
(3) Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v5, p27
persons.
(2) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p199, where he testifies to the above
anecdote, as he says : “All stood up except three persons who came
under the curse of Ali.”
(3) Hilyatul Awliya’, by Abu Nu’aym, v5, p27
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
After his speech, the Messenger of Allah asked every body to give the oath
of allegiance to Ali (AS) and congratulate him. Among those who gave him
the oath were Umar(ra), Abu Bakr(ra), and Uthman(ra).
It is narrated that Umar(ra) and Abu Bakr(ra) said:
of allegiance to Ali (AS) and congratulate him. Among those who gave him
the oath were Umar(ra), Abu Bakr(ra), and Uthman(ra).
It is narrated that Umar(ra) and Abu Bakr(ra) said:
“Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader (Mawla) of all
believing men and women.”
believing men and women.”
Sunni references:
(1) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p281
(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(3) Mishkat al-Masabih, by al-Khatib al-Tabrizi, p557
(4) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part3, p144
(5) Kitabul Wilayah, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari
(6) al-Musannaf, by Ibn Abi Shaybah
(7) al-Musnad, by Abu Ya’ala
(8) Hadith al-Wilayah, by Ahmad Ibn `Uqdah
(9) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra
… and more.
(1) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v4, p281
(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(3) Mishkat al-Masabih, by al-Khatib al-Tabrizi, p557
(4) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part3, p144
(5) Kitabul Wilayah, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari
(6) al-Musannaf, by Ibn Abi Shaybah
(7) al-Musnad, by Abu Ya’ala
(8) Hadith al-Wilayah, by Ahmad Ibn `Uqdah
(9) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra
… and more.
………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“Actually this discussion is happening because you started shia bashing.”
It is not bashing it has been a constructive discussion, people should know what shia fellows believe and do.
It is not bashing it has been a constructive discussion, people should know what shia fellows believe and do.
“I am not sectarian and against any sect specially sunni.”
You are sectarian otherwise you could not have been shia! :)
You are sectarian otherwise you could not have been shia! :)
“We ought to be strong and united because enemy is much stronger than your imaginations.”
Well in the name of unity one can’t allow shias to create further divide and damage among Muslims. You people are one of the main source of divisions and confusions among Muslims.
Well in the name of unity one can’t allow shias to create further divide and damage among Muslims. You people are one of the main source of divisions and confusions among Muslims.
“Faisal Raza Abdi is shia who never get tired of calling Zardari “My leader”…I am also shia but theres a big difference…You can not measure all shias with single yardstick thats SLANDER.”
This is no measure to judge anyone. If you or any other shia does not like Zardari or someone else, still it does not mean that you/he are/is right! I am just discussing the shia philosophy and their acts than any particular individual.
This is no measure to judge anyone. If you or any other shia does not like Zardari or someone else, still it does not mean that you/he are/is right! I am just discussing the shia philosophy and their acts than any particular individual.
“Because you asked again…I will not bring another theory…I will post some history not about who was being punished and who was not…but who was reminded and how.”
This history trick you people use so often to prove your wrongs as right!
This history trick you people use so often to prove your wrongs as right!
“About the Battle of Camel, al-Hakim and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and others
recorded that:
………………..
”
Well this has been mentioned in the those books that are not that strong if it really is there. Secondly here question arises what Prophet Muhammad(SAW) meant from it if he mentioned the word “Mawla”? Thirdly why is it not mentioned in any strong books? Fourthly, Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was almost sure that he is performing the last Hajj and he got indications of his death but still why did he not explicitly mention the name of Ali(RA) as his successor?
Well, one can infer many things from it and shia infer that Ali was denied his right for which they just bring shallow stories, assumptions and weak references!
recorded that:
………………..
”
Well this has been mentioned in the those books that are not that strong if it really is there. Secondly here question arises what Prophet Muhammad(SAW) meant from it if he mentioned the word “Mawla”? Thirdly why is it not mentioned in any strong books? Fourthly, Prophet Muhammad(SAW) was almost sure that he is performing the last Hajj and he got indications of his death but still why did he not explicitly mention the name of Ali(RA) as his successor?
Well, one can infer many things from it and shia infer that Ali was denied his right for which they just bring shallow stories, assumptions and weak references!
………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“Now something about who was being punished.”
Stories and more stories and mainly shia oriented references! It is strange that shia fellows don’t even follow the main books of hadith and mainly take refuge in not that authentic and strong books! Why is it so?
“After his speech, the Messenger of Allah asked every body to give the oath
of allegiance to Ali (AS) and congratulate him. Among those who gave him
the oath were Umar(ra), Abu Bakr(ra), and Uthman(ra).
It is narrated that Umar(ra) and Abu Bakr(ra) said:
“Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader (Mawla) of all
believing men and women.”
of allegiance to Ali (AS) and congratulate him. Among those who gave him
the oath were Umar(ra), Abu Bakr(ra), and Uthman(ra).
It is narrated that Umar(ra) and Abu Bakr(ra) said:
“Well done Ibn Abi Talib! Today you became the leader (Mawla) of all
believing men and women.”
You better live in your references because that is the only refuge for you people! So here you want to prove that later on first three Caliphs retreated from their stance! Why did they do so? They were extremely pious and Allah fearing people though! Actually these are mental creations of shias that they think that first three caliphs did not give right to Ali but in reality all four were very cooperating and caring towards one another! You people just need some points to sustain your strange believes and anti-Islam acts i suppose!
“Sunni references:
…..
”
Don’t have access to those books so can’t say what is written and in which context! and don’t play “reference reference” game with me like shias often do! Bring something from most authentic books and Tafsirs!
…..
”
Don’t have access to those books so can’t say what is written and in which context! and don’t play “reference reference” game with me like shias often do! Bring something from most authentic books and Tafsirs!
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@zaheer
I don’t know what you will believe if a reference from Masnad of Hanbal is shia propaganda then what is your stand….wheres your platform…do you have any stand anywhere except poisoned with firqa wariyat.
When I quote Quran you call it shia propaganda when I quote hadith you call it not authentic enough.
Where you learn your Islam from some hardcore sixth grade failed sectarian mulla.
I am sure if I quote Bukhari you would not be in good mental health
I don’t know what you will believe if a reference from Masnad of Hanbal is shia propaganda then what is your stand….wheres your platform…do you have any stand anywhere except poisoned with firqa wariyat.
When I quote Quran you call it shia propaganda when I quote hadith you call it not authentic enough.
Where you learn your Islam from some hardcore sixth grade failed sectarian mulla.
I am sure if I quote Bukhari you would not be in good mental health
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@zaheer
Why blame shias…what I am quoting here is immediately after Prophet…sect is nothing Muslims were blood thirsty for each other.
Islam is a straight path which has no room for wriggle here and there even for a short while.
This incident of camel was not sponsored by shias but your beloved sahabah Talha and Zubair and led by Ayesha(ra).
Islam is a straight path which has no room for wriggle here and there even for a short while.
This incident of camel was not sponsored by shias but your beloved sahabah Talha and Zubair and led by Ayesha(ra).
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 4.336
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet stood up and delivered a sermon, and pointed to the house of Aisha, and said: “Fitna (trouble/sedition) is right here,” saying three times, “and from where the side of the Satan’s head comes out.”
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet stood up and delivered a sermon, and pointed to the house of Aisha, and said: “Fitna (trouble/sedition) is right here,” saying three times, “and from where the side of the Satan’s head comes out.”
Muslim has also related in his Sahih from Ikrima Ibn Ammar from Salim from Ibn Umar who said:
“The Prophet of Allah (PBUH&HF) emerged from the house of Aisha and said. ‘The pivot of disbelief is from here, where the horns of Satan will rise.’”
reference: Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, the Chapter of Seditions, v4, p2229
reference: Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, the Chapter of Seditions, v4, p2229
Sahih Bukhari Hadith: 9.220
Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad al-Aasadi:
When Talha, al-Zubair and Aisha moved toBasra
This Hadith indicates that obedience to her is disobedience to Allah, and to oppose and disobey her is to obey Allah.
Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad al-Aasadi:
When Talha, al-Zubair and Aisha moved to
This Hadith indicates that obedience to her is disobedience to Allah, and to oppose and disobey her is to obey Allah.
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said to his wives: “I wonder which one of you will be the instigator of the Camel Affair, at whom the dogs of Haw’ab will bark, and she will be the one who has deviated from the straight path. As to you Humayra (i.e., Aisha), I have warned you in that regard.”
references:
references:
History of Ibn al-Athir, v3, p120
al-Imamah wa al-Siyasah, by Ibn Qutaybah
al-Imamah wa al-Siyasah, by Ibn Qutaybah
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@zaheer
You ask some interesting question about “Mawla”
As per Quran Prophet has more rights on believers Nafs then themselves.
Allah is the Master and Owner of every creature and Allah has bestowed these ownership rights to Prophet Mohammad(saw) over believers i.e. those who believe in rights of Allah over them.
In this tradition Prophet said
As per Quran Prophet has more rights on believers Nafs then themselves.
Allah is the Master and Owner of every creature and Allah has bestowed these ownership rights to Prophet Mohammad(saw) over believers i.e. those who believe in rights of Allah over them.
In this tradition Prophet said
“Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?” People cried and answered: “Yes, O’ Messenger of God.” Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the
hand of Ali and said:
“Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.”
hand of Ali and said:
“Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.”
So now Zaheer if you were in that era and first three Khalifa ask you to jump…you had all the rights to ask them why but if Ali asked you to jump…no question ask you had to jump…This is the meanings of “Mawla” and this is the straight path.
………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“I don’t know what you will believe if a reference from Masnad of Hanbal is shia propaganda then what is your stand….wheres your platform…do you have any stand anywhere except poisoned with firqa wariyat.”
If references are authentic and within true context then it is fine! You people are habitual of playing around with ahadith books as it is the only way to prove wrongs as truth! Just have a look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musnad_Ahmad_ibn_Hanbal
If references are authentic and within true context then it is fine! You people are habitual of playing around with ahadith books as it is the only way to prove wrongs as truth! Just have a look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musnad_Ahmad_ibn_Hanbal
“When I quote Quran you call it shia propaganda when I quote hadith you call it not authentic enough.”
You quote out of context from Quran and Ahadith you people quote are in most cases either weak or out of context! I have said time and again there is no place of sects in Islam but you people created one and you have to sustain it somehow through tricks and games!
You quote out of context from Quran and Ahadith you people quote are in most cases either weak or out of context! I have said time and again there is no place of sects in Islam but you people created one and you have to sustain it somehow through tricks and games!
“Where you learn your Islam from some hardcore sixth grade failed sectarian mulla.”
That definition of mulla fits exactly to Shia scholars! ;)
That definition of mulla fits exactly to Shia scholars! ;)
“I am sure if I quote Bukhari you would not be in good mental health”
If it will be in real context then is fine!
If it will be in real context then is fine!
…………………………………………………..
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“Why blame shias…what I am quoting here is immediately after Prophet…sect is nothing Muslims were blood thirsty for each other.”
Shias have to take blame for their doings, they are initiators and not innocent! Muslims might be blood thirsty but it does not mean that Shias were/are right or innocents!
Shias have to take blame for their doings, they are initiators and not innocent! Muslims might be blood thirsty but it does not mean that Shias were/are right or innocents!
“Islam is a straight path which has no room for wriggle here and there even for a short while.”
That is true but your tribe have crated so many wriggles that world and especially Muslims are in a lot of confusions and trouble! I don’t say people of other sects are angels; others also have done damage to Islam.
That is true but your tribe have crated so many wriggles that world and especially Muslims are in a lot of confusions and trouble! I don’t say people of other sects are angels; others also have done damage to Islam.
“This incident of camel was not sponsored by shias but your beloved sahabah Talha and Zubair and led by Ayesha(ra).”
And this is your trip of forgeries, allegations and propaganda! I think this incident of camel was sponsored by Shias/miscreants and neither by Ali(RA) nor by Ayesha(RA)!
And this is your trip of forgeries, allegations and propaganda! I think this incident of camel was sponsored by Shias/miscreants and neither by Ali(RA) nor by Ayesha(RA)!
“Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 4.336
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet stood up and delivered a sermon, and pointed to the house of Aisha, and said: “Fitna (trouble/sedition) is right here,” saying three times, “and from where the side of the Satan’s head comes out.” ”
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet stood up and delivered a sermon, and pointed to the house of Aisha, and said: “Fitna (trouble/sedition) is right here,” saying three times, “and from where the side of the Satan’s head comes out.” ”
With additional words this hadith is as follows
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).
So what you people have inferred from it is that he was pointing to Ayesha(RA) and that is how one can play with words and meanings in his/her own way! This is what your so called scholars whole day do looking for words to play around with meanings and contexts! Even if one supposes that he pointed towards her house and not towards east then what exactly did he mean?
From above hadith and other ahadith mentioned at other places it is evident that he was pointing towards “East” and not her house and that in fact was house of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) himself too! Prophet(SAW) could have told clearly and why would he use hidden way? You people again might bring your famous magic “Taqiyya” to justify it! Below I give further references that explain the real context!
From above hadith and other ahadith mentioned at other places it is evident that he was pointing towards “East” and not her house and that in fact was house of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) himself too! Prophet(SAW) could have told clearly and why would he use hidden way? You people again might bring your famous magic “Taqiyya” to justify it! Below I give further references that explain the real context!
“Muslim has also related in his Sahih from Ikrima Ibn Ammar from Salim from Ibn Umar who said:
“The Prophet of Allah (PBUH&HF) emerged from the house of Aisha and said. ‘The pivot of disbelief is from here, where the horns of Satan will rise.’”
“The Prophet of Allah (PBUH&HF) emerged from the house of Aisha and said. ‘The pivot of disbelief is from here, where the horns of Satan will rise.’”
reference: Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, the Chapter of Seditions, v4, p2229”
Below are the references which define and clarify the context of the hadith!
Muslim Bk 1, Number 0083:
It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Mas’ud that the Apostle
of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) pointed towards
Yemen with his hand and said: Verily Iman is towards this
side, and harshness and callousness of the hearts is found
amongst the rude owners of the camels who drive them behind
their tails (to the direction) where emerge the two horns of
Satan, they are the tribes of Rabi’a and Mudar.
It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Mas’ud that the Apostle
of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) pointed towards
Yemen with his hand and said: Verily Iman is towards this
side, and harshness and callousness of the hearts is found
amongst the rude owners of the camels who drive them behind
their tails (to the direction) where emerge the two horns of
Satan, they are the tribes of Rabi’a and Mudar.
Muslim Bk 41, Number 6938:
Ibn ‘Umar reported that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace
be upon him) as saying (in a state) that he had turned his
face towards the east: Behold, turmoil would appear from this
side, from where the horns of Satan would appear.
Ibn ‘Umar reported that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace
be upon him) as saying (in a state) that he had turned his
face towards the east: Behold, turmoil would appear from this
side, from where the horns of Satan would appear.
Muslim Bk 41, Number 6939:
Ibn ‘Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon
him) stood by the door (of the apartment of) Hafsa and,
pointing towards the east, he said: The turmoil would appear
from this side, viz. where the horns of Satan would appear,
and he uttered these words twice or thrice and Ubaidullah b.
Sa’ld in his narration said. The Messenger of Allah (may peace
be upon him) had been standing by the door of ‘A’isha.
Ibn ‘Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon
him) stood by the door (of the apartment of) Hafsa and,
pointing towards the east, he said: The turmoil would appear
from this side, viz. where the horns of Satan would appear,
and he uttered these words twice or thrice and Ubaidullah b.
Sa’ld in his narration said. The Messenger of Allah (may peace
be upon him) had been standing by the door of ‘A’isha.
Muslim Bk 41, Number 6943:
Ibn Fudail reported on the authority of his father that he
heard Salim b. ‘Abdullah b. ‘Umar as saying: O people of Iraq,
how strange it is that you ask about the minor sins but commit
major sins? I heard from my father ‘Abdullah b. ‘Umar,
narrating that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon
him) as saying while pointing his hand towards the east:
Verily. the turmoil would come from this side, from where
appear the horns of Satan and you would strike the necks of
one another; and Moses killed a person from among the people
of Pharaoh unintentionally and Allah, the Exalted and
Glorious, said:” You killed a person but We relieved you from
the grief and tried you with (many a) trial” (xx. 40). Ahmad
b. Umar reported this hadith from Salim, but he did not make a
mention of the words:” I heard”.
Ibn Fudail reported on the authority of his father that he
heard Salim b. ‘Abdullah b. ‘Umar as saying: O people of Iraq,
how strange it is that you ask about the minor sins but commit
major sins? I heard from my father ‘Abdullah b. ‘Umar,
narrating that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon
him) as saying while pointing his hand towards the east:
Verily. the turmoil would come from this side, from where
appear the horns of Satan and you would strike the necks of
one another; and Moses killed a person from among the people
of Pharaoh unintentionally and Allah, the Exalted and
Glorious, said:” You killed a person but We relieved you from
the grief and tried you with (many a) trial” (xx. 40). Ahmad
b. Umar reported this hadith from Salim, but he did not make a
mention of the words:” I heard”.
Further related Ahadith
Muslim Bk 41, Number 6940, Bk 41, Number 6941, Bk 4, Number 1275, Bk 4 Number 1807
And in Bukhari it also has been mentioned which you and your tribe intentionally missed I suppose!
Bukhari 2.147:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: (The Prophet) said, “O Allah! Bless our
Sham and ourYemen
Prophet again said, “O Allah! Bless our Sham andYemen
said again, “Our Najd as well.” On that the Prophet said,
“There will appear earthquakes and afflictions, and from there
will come out the side of the head of Satan.”
Narrated Ibn `Umar: (The Prophet) said, “O Allah! Bless our
Sham and our
Prophet again said, “O Allah! Bless our Sham and
said again, “Our Najd as well.” On that the Prophet said,
“There will appear earthquakes and afflictions, and from there
will come out the side of the head of Satan.”
Bukhari 4.499:
Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar: I saw Allah’s Apostle pointing
towards the east saying, “Lo! Afflictions will verily emerge
hence; afflictions will verily emerge hence where the (side of
the head of) Satan appears.”
Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar: I saw Allah’s Apostle pointing
towards the east saying, “Lo! Afflictions will verily emerge
hence; afflictions will verily emerge hence where the (side of
the head of) Satan appears.”
Bukhari 5.672:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “Belief is Yemenite
while afflictions appear from there (the east) from where the
side of the head of Satan will appear.”
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “Belief is Yemenite
while afflictions appear from there (the east) from where the
side of the head of Satan will appear.”
Bukhari 9.213:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: I heard Allah’s Apostle while he was
facing the East, saying, “Verily! Afflictions are there, from
where the side of the head of Satan comes out.” 9.214:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: The Prophet said, “O Allah! Bestow Your
blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our
Yemen Najd .” He said, “O
Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah!
Bestow Your blessings on ourYemen
Allah’s Apostle! And also on ourNajd .” I think the third time
the Prophet said, “There (inNajd ) is the place of earthquakes
and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head
of Satan.”
Narrated Ibn `Umar: I heard Allah’s Apostle while he was
facing the East, saying, “Verily! Afflictions are there, from
where the side of the head of Satan comes out.” 9.214:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: The Prophet said, “O Allah! Bestow Your
blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our
Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah!
Bestow Your blessings on our
Allah’s Apostle! And also on our
the Prophet said, “There (in
and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head
of Satan.”
More references
Bukhari 4.702, 4.714, 9.212
And you go further….
“ Sahih Bukhari Hadith: 9.220
Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad al-Aasadi:
When Talha, al-Zubair and Aisha moved toBasra
This Hadith indicates that obedience to her is disobedience to Allah, and to oppose and disobey her is to obey Allah.”
Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad al-Aasadi:
When Talha, al-Zubair and Aisha moved to
This Hadith indicates that obedience to her is disobedience to Allah, and to oppose and disobey her is to obey Allah.”
This event has been mentioned at another place in Bukhari!
Bukhari 5.116:
Narrated Abu Wail: When `Ali sent `Ammar and Al−Hasan to (the
people of) Kufa to urge them to fight, `Ammar addressed them
saying, “I know that she (i.e. `Aisha) is the wife of the
Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter (world to come),
but Allah has put you to test, whether you will follow Him
(i.e. Allah) or her.”
Narrated Abu Wail: When `Ali sent `Ammar and Al−Hasan to (the
people of) Kufa to urge them to fight, `Ammar addressed them
saying, “I know that she (i.e. `Aisha) is the wife of the
Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter (world to come),
but Allah has put you to test, whether you will follow Him
(i.e. Allah) or her.”
Further refernces
Bukhari 9.221, 9.222
There are few points
1: This is not saying of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) rather is opinion of a companion!
2: Muslims were divided in this war so they were of different opinions and don’t forget that so many Sahaba were supporting Ayesha(RA) too!
3: Ammar(RA) was of the opinion that Ali(RA) is right and Ayesha(RA) is on the wrong but it does not mean that it is the ultimate reality or truth! As I said there were confusions and also miscreants who created divisions and fights among Muslims.
4: Anyone could commit mistake including Ayesha or Ali!
5: This opinion of a Sahabi does not mean that what Ayesha said or did was always wrong and her words or Ahadith were wrong!
6: One can’t stretch this particular event to prove everything right or wrong like your wonderful tribe does!
1: This is not saying of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) rather is opinion of a companion!
2: Muslims were divided in this war so they were of different opinions and don’t forget that so many Sahaba were supporting Ayesha(RA) too!
3: Ammar(RA) was of the opinion that Ali(RA) is right and Ayesha(RA) is on the wrong but it does not mean that it is the ultimate reality or truth! As I said there were confusions and also miscreants who created divisions and fights among Muslims.
4: Anyone could commit mistake including Ayesha or Ali!
5: This opinion of a Sahabi does not mean that what Ayesha said or did was always wrong and her words or Ahadith were wrong!
6: One can’t stretch this particular event to prove everything right or wrong like your wonderful tribe does!
“The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said to his wives: “I wonder which one of you will be the instigator of the Camel Affair, at whom the dogs of Haw’ab will bark, and she will be the one who has deviated from the straight path. As to you Humayra (i.e., Aisha), I have warned you in that regard.”
references:…”
references:…”
And you don’t refrain referring from weak books and also forged Shia texts! Brains of you and your tribe are so narrow and close that you people can’t see in broader and real contexts, actually it is not your fault you people have been brainwashed and have been living in this narrow world since your childhoods! But do one thing! Kindly don’t try to brainwash and confuse innocent people!
………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“You ask some interesting question about “Mawla””
It is of more interest to you than me
It is of more interest to you than me
“As per Quran Prophet has more rights on believers Nafs then themselves.”
Exact Ayah please.
Exact Ayah please.
“Allah is the Master and Owner of every creature and Allah has bestowed these ownership rights to Prophet Mohammad(saw) over believers i.e. those who believe in rights of Allah over them.”
Allah(SWT) did not give unlimited or ultimate ownership to anyone! He gave authority to Prophet(SAW) in defined, clear and described way.
Allah(SWT) did not give unlimited or ultimate ownership to anyone! He gave authority to Prophet(SAW) in defined, clear and described way.
“In this tradition Prophet said
“Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?” People cried and answered: “Yes, O’ Messenger of God.” Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the
hand of Ali and said:
“Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.” ”
“Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?” People cried and answered: “Yes, O’ Messenger of God.” Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the
hand of Ali and said:
“Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O’ God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.” ”
First of all this tradition is not found in any authentic books of Ahadith, secondly even if one supposes that it is true then what was the real context and message in it! As i said that Allah(SWT) gave defined and controlled authority even to Prophet(SAW) then what about others?
Anyhow this seems to me another forgery and self creation of Shias who have build their building on lies and forgeries.
Anyhow this seems to me another forgery and self creation of Shias who have build their building on lies and forgeries.
“So now Zaheer if you were in that era and first three Khalifa ask you to jump…you had all the rights to ask them why but if Ali asked you to jump…no question ask you had to jump…This is the meanings of “Mawla” and this is the straight path.”
If i was there in that period i had followed all four of them as they were on right path! I had also not followed the Shias who are and were miscreants!
and now you (jazoo) take a right direction, open your eyes, leave your sect and become only Muslim that is the straight path!!!
If i was there in that period i had followed all four of them as they were on right path! I had also not followed the Shias who are and were miscreants!
and now you (jazoo) take a right direction, open your eyes, leave your sect and become only Muslim that is the straight path!!!
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@zaheer
You posted a bundle of ahadith mentioning how and where head of Satan will appear.
First you did not focus on Bukhari the most authentic …you quote Muslim the second authentic…If I had done the same you will call it quoting the weak ahadith as propaganda…so you don’t stick to your own principles…for you its about the winning the argument..no matter if you rot in hell but you must win an argument in this world.
Now I am re quoting Bukhari you quote so you could not say its shia propaganda even though its Bukhari.
You posted a bundle of ahadith mentioning how and where head of Satan will appear.
First you did not focus on Bukhari the most authentic …you quote Muslim the second authentic…If I had done the same you will call it quoting the weak ahadith as propaganda…so you don’t stick to your own principles…for you its about the winning the argument..no matter if you rot in hell but you must win an argument in this world.
Now I am re quoting Bukhari you quote so you could not say its shia propaganda even though its Bukhari.
“With additional words this hadith is as follows
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).”
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).”
Prophet(saw) said fitna will appear from HERE and (from “WHERE” part you can draw as many meanings as you like).
Please don’t call it shia playing with words because you are an insult to human intelligence.
Hadith you quote is evident that Prophet mentioning two places from where fitna will appear one is right where he is standing or emerging i.e. Ayesha’s house and other place is separated with the word “AND ” which means there are two places.
Besides Bukhari did not put this hadith in the chapter of fitna..Bukhari has put the tradition related to Aisha in a section named: “what went on in the houses of the wives of the Prophet”.
Please don’t call it shia playing with words because you are an insult to human intelligence.
Hadith you quote is evident that Prophet mentioning two places from where fitna will appear one is right where he is standing or emerging i.e. Ayesha’s house and other place is separated with the word “
Besides Bukhari did not put this hadith in the chapter of fitna..Bukhari has put the tradition related to Aisha in a section named: “what went on in the houses of the wives of the Prophet”.
Then you come up with another funni notion
You wrote
You wrote
“From above hadith and other ahadith mentioned at other places it is evident that he was pointing towards “East” and not her house and that in fact was house of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) himself too! Prophet(SAW) could have told clearly and why would he use hidden way? You people again might bring your famous magic ”
You are complaining why Prophet had not mentioned name of Ayesha explicitly…you are ok with another riddle Prophet had given in same hadith about east not giving the exact name of the city and tribe…..so one part of hadith riddle absolve Ayesha because Prophet should be open about what he says…in the same hadith other riddle is ok….Now who is playing with words.
………………………………………………….
jazoo said:
@zaheer
You wrote about Hadith of Mawla
You wrote about Hadith of Mawla
“First of all this tradition is not found in any authentic books of Ahadith,”
I don’t know whats authentic…we learn Siha Sitah are authentic books unfortunately Sahi Tirmizi is one of the siha sittah book….You least care to put a check on what you write.
No need to write too many words of nonsense write few words eloquently with real substance.
No need to write too many words of nonsense write few words eloquently with real substance.
………………………………………………….
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“You posted a bundle of ahadith mentioning how and where head of Satan will appear.”
and there was mentioned the real context of the hadith that you tried to use in your way! You wanted to tell as if he was pointing towards house of Ayesha(RA) but it was not the case.
and there was mentioned the real context of the hadith that you tried to use in your way! You wanted to tell as if he was pointing towards house of Ayesha(RA) but it was not the case.
“First you did not focus on Bukhari the most authentic …you quote Muslim the second authentic…”
I just quoted from Muslim first and it is not must to quote from Bukhari first or all the time! I have been quoting from Bukhari too. Your problem has been that you mostly go for non-authentic books.
I just quoted from Muslim first and it is not must to quote from Bukhari first or all the time! I have been quoting from Bukhari too. Your problem has been that you mostly go for non-authentic books.
“If I had done the same you will call it quoting the weak ahadith as propaganda…”
No! i would not but i would be pointing out if you are quoting out of context or weak ahadith or forgeries or from Shia books.
No! i would not but i would be pointing out if you are quoting out of context or weak ahadith or forgeries or from Shia books.
“so you don’t stick to your own principles…”
A typical Shia propaganda and trick that they try to prove others are contradicting and are against their own thoughts! They think as if they are the real truth and all intellect! I was not going against my principles if i quoted from Muslim more or first in that particular reply! Is it necessary to quote always first from Bukhari or only from Bukhari? Your problem is that you and your tribe stays most of the time away from Bukhari and Muslim because there you people can’t defend your lies and cheatings!
A typical Shia propaganda and trick that they try to prove others are contradicting and are against their own thoughts! They think as if they are the real truth and all intellect! I was not going against my principles if i quoted from Muslim more or first in that particular reply! Is it necessary to quote always first from Bukhari or only from Bukhari? Your problem is that you and your tribe stays most of the time away from Bukhari and Muslim because there you people can’t defend your lies and cheatings!
“for you its about the winning the argument..no matter if you rot in hell but you must win an argument in this world.”
No it is not about winning, i try to stay fair and just and i also accept if i make mistake or don’t know anything! I am not like Shias who bring even lies and forgeries to prove their wrongs as right! No body knows who will rot in hell; only Allah(SWT) knows that!
No it is not about winning, i try to stay fair and just and i also accept if i make mistake or don’t know anything! I am not like Shias who bring even lies and forgeries to prove their wrongs as right! No body knows who will rot in hell; only Allah(SWT) knows that!
“Now I am re quoting Bukhari you quote so you could not say its shia propaganda even though its Bukhari.”
OK!
“With additional words this hadith is as follows
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).”
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).”
“Prophet(saw) said fitna will appear from HERE and (from “WHERE” part you can draw as many meanings as you like).
Please don’t call it shia playing with words because you are an insult to human intelligence.”
Please don’t call it shia playing with words because you are an insult to human intelligence.”
It is Shia propaganda of course and play of words! Again if you would use your little brain it will be clear that Prophet(SAW) was pointing towards east and not her house! Just go through the ahadith i mentioned in last post but you just want to live in your limited and false context! If you will move out of your little room you will see the reality and light but you are afraid of light i suppose!
“Hadith you quote is evident that Prophet mentioning two places from where fitna will appear one is right where he is standing or emerging i.e. Ayesha’s house and other place is separated with the word “AND ” which means there are two places.”
Once more you are playing with words and you did not read the other related ahadith from Bukhari i mentioned above and in few there is no word “and” used! Look in Bukhari 9.213 for example.
Once more you are playing with words and you did not read the other related ahadith from Bukhari i mentioned above and in few there is no word “and” used! Look in Bukhari 9.213 for example.
“Narrated Ibn `Umar: I heard Allah’s Apostle while he was
facing the East, saying, “Verily! Afflictions are there, from
where the side of the head of Satan comes out.” ”
facing the East, saying, “Verily! Afflictions are there, from
where the side of the head of Satan comes out.” ”
Where is word “and”? Actually it is not your fault! I say again you need to come out of your small world and read my last post with open mind! By the way use of word “and” does not necessarily means two places it can be used to tell two things about one place or side too i.e. east; this is what is evident from other ahadith. e.g. one can say that “that is Lahore
“Besides Bukhari did not put this hadith in the chapter of fitna..Bukhari has put the tradition related to Aisha in a section named: “what went on in the houses of the wives of the Prophet”.”
The book number and name of the chapter for hadith number “4.336″ is
Bk. 53: One−fifth of Booty to the Cause of Allah (Khumus).
and beside that this has been mentioned in different chapters in Bukhari; just read references given above and their chapters names!
The book number and name of the chapter for hadith number “4.336″ is
Bk. 53: One−fifth of Booty to the Cause of Allah (Khumus).
and beside that this has been mentioned in different chapters in Bukhari; just read references given above and their chapters names!
“Then you come up with another funni notion”
This is style of you and your tribe that they try to describe thoughts of others as funny and useless just to prove themselves as correct and right! You people are such a wonderful loosers :)
This is style of you and your tribe that they try to describe thoughts of others as funny and useless just to prove themselves as correct and right! You people are such a wonderful loosers :)
“You are complaining why Prophet had not mentioned name of Ayesha explicitly…you are ok with another riddle Prophet had given in same hadith about east not giving the exact name of the city and tribe…..so one part of hadith riddle absolve Ayesha because Prophet should be open about what he says…in the same hadith other riddle is ok….Now who is playing with words.”
You are playing again! To solve your riddle i gave many ahadith which mention the real context and side and none of them tells the name of Ayesha(RA) explicitly but names of cities and east has been explicitly mentioned; which shows that he did not mention Ayesha’s house.
And Allah(SWT) knows best.
And Allah(SWT) knows best.
…………………………………………………..
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“You wrote about Hadith of Mawla
“First of all this tradition is not found in any authentic books of Ahadith,”
I don’t know whats authentic…”
“First of all this tradition is not found in any authentic books of Ahadith,”
I don’t know whats authentic…”
E.g. Bukhari or Muslim.
“we learn Siha Sitah are authentic books unfortunately Sahi Tirmizi is one of the siha sittah book….”
Yes it is one of six books but problem of you and your tribe is that you mostly stay away from Bukhari and Muslim and also try to use weak ahadith from other Sahih books!
http://tinyurl.com/3327etm
Yes it is one of six books but problem of you and your tribe is that you mostly stay away from Bukhari and Muslim and also try to use weak ahadith from other Sahih books!
http://tinyurl.com/3327etm
“You least care to put a check on what you write.”
I try my best to care but you expect that i accept all what you say blindly like most of people do! that i can’t do.
I try my best to care but you expect that i accept all what you say blindly like most of people do! that i can’t do.
“No need to write too many words of nonsense write few words eloquently with real substance.”
I will again say, try to come out of your shia mentality and look into reality with open mind and eyes. Try to be sensible and open minded! Best Wishes.
I will again say, try to come out of your shia mentality and look into reality with open mind and eyes. Try to be sensible and open minded! Best Wishes.
…………………………………………………..
jazoo said:
@zaheer
Prophet(saw) mentioned many ahadith on different topics….one topic does not mean all ahadith have the same context.
Fitna will appear on may places in many forms…it does not mean theres a single emergence of fitna with a singular context.
The hadith in Bukhari is explicit and secluded in its essence….your quoting many ahadith on the topic of fitna does not mean all incidence are of single convergence and Bukhari hadith should not be taken in its very context.
Bukhari hadith must be taken with its context and must not be confused with other mentioning of fitnas.
Its miracle of Allah that Prophet of Allah never lied(nauzubillah)….if he were not true Prophet of Allah His predictions would never comes true.
History also testified to this hadith of Bikhari that a fitna emerge in the form of Jaml lead by this very wife of Prophet who is subject of this hadith.
Your quoting too many ahadith on fitna is a lame effort to confused the issue but it will not help because evidences are overwhelming that she was the cause of great fitna in early Islam.
Why you are looking for word “and” in a different hadith….I referred the same hadith you quote.
The original hadith of Bukhari is as follows
Fitna will appear on may places in many forms…it does not mean theres a single emergence of fitna with a singular context.
The hadith in Bukhari is explicit and secluded in its essence….your quoting many ahadith on the topic of fitna does not mean all incidence are of single convergence and Bukhari hadith should not be taken in its very context.
Bukhari hadith must be taken with its context and must not be confused with other mentioning of fitnas.
Its miracle of Allah that Prophet of Allah never lied(nauzubillah)….if he were not true Prophet of Allah His predictions would never comes true.
History also testified to this hadith of Bikhari that a fitna emerge in the form of Jaml lead by this very wife of Prophet who is subject of this hadith.
Your quoting too many ahadith on fitna is a lame effort to confused the issue but it will not help because evidences are overwhelming that she was the cause of great fitna in early Islam.
Why you are looking for word “and” in a different hadith….I referred the same hadith you quote.
The original hadith of Bukhari is as follows
“Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 4.336
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet stood up and delivered a sermon, and pointed to the house of Aisha, and said: “Fitna (trouble/sedition) is right here,” saying three times, “and from where the side of the Satan’s head comes out.”
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet stood up and delivered a sermon, and pointed to the house of Aisha, and said: “Fitna (trouble/sedition) is right here,” saying three times, “and from where the side of the Satan’s head comes out.”
Then you quoted not the real hadith but a version of hadith as follows
“OK!
“With additional words this hadith is as follows
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).””
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).””
A bracket with (i.e. eastwards) is not the part of original hadith that is simply a cover up.
hiding the truth will make you more miserable.
hiding the truth will make you more miserable.
…………………………………………………..
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
I think enough has been discussed and talked here, so let us stop as things have started to repeat and give others chance to read and analyse our insights and views.
…………………………………End of discussion…………………
He was now trying to drag the discussion unnecessarily and was repeating same questions but I did not want that. I had set certain objectives for this discussion, which spanned over a half year, and I had achieved most of them so wanted to stop here although it could have been stretched as far as one likes.
Answer to his last post could be found in my detailed reply of 29 April 2010 at 5:21 pm which was as follows.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………
Zaheer said:
@jazoo
“Why blame shias…what I am quoting here is immediately after Prophet…sect is nothing Muslims were blood thirsty for each other.”
Shias have to take blame for their doings, they are initiators and not innocent! Muslims might be blood thirsty but it does not mean that Shias were/are right or innocents!
Shias have to take blame for their doings, they are initiators and not innocent! Muslims might be blood thirsty but it does not mean that Shias were/are right or innocents!
“Islam is a straight path which has no room for wriggle here and there even for a short while.”
That is true but your tribe have crated so many wriggles that world and especially Muslims are in a lot of confusions and trouble! I don’t say people of other sects are angels; others also have done damage to Islam.
That is true but your tribe have crated so many wriggles that world and especially Muslims are in a lot of confusions and trouble! I don’t say people of other sects are angels; others also have done damage to Islam.
“This incident of camel was not sponsored by shias but your beloved sahabah Talha and Zubair and led by Ayesha(ra).”
And this is your trip of forgeries, allegations and propaganda! I think this incident of camel was sponsored by Shias/miscreants and neither by Ali(RA) nor by Ayesha(RA)!
And this is your trip of forgeries, allegations and propaganda! I think this incident of camel was sponsored by Shias/miscreants and neither by Ali(RA) nor by Ayesha(RA)!
“Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 4.336
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet stood up and delivered a sermon, and pointed to the house of Aisha, and said: “Fitna (trouble/sedition) is right here,” saying three times, “and from where the side of the Satan’s head comes out.” ”
Narrated Abdullah:
The Prophet stood up and delivered a sermon, and pointed to the house of Aisha, and said: “Fitna (trouble/sedition) is right here,” saying three times, “and from where the side of the Satan’s head comes out.” ”
With additional words this hadith is as follows
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).
Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet stood up and delivered a
sermon, and pointing to `Aisha’s house (i.e. eastwards), he
said thrice, “Affliction (will appear from) here,” and, “from
where the side of the Satan’s head comes out (i.e. from the
East).
So what you people have inferred from it is that he was pointing to Ayesha(RA) and that is how one can play with words and meanings in his/her own way! This is what your so called scholars whole day do looking for words to play around with meanings and contexts! Even if one supposes that he pointed towards her house and not towards east then what exactly did he mean?
From above hadith and other ahadith mentioned at other places it is evident that he was pointing towards “East” and not her house and that in fact was house of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) himself too! Prophet(SAW) could have told clearly and why would he use hidden way? You people again might bring your famous magic “Taqiyya” to justify it! Below I give further references that explain the real context!
From above hadith and other ahadith mentioned at other places it is evident that he was pointing towards “East” and not her house and that in fact was house of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) himself too! Prophet(SAW) could have told clearly and why would he use hidden way? You people again might bring your famous magic “Taqiyya” to justify it! Below I give further references that explain the real context!
“Muslim has also related in his Sahih from Ikrima Ibn Ammar from Salim from Ibn Umar who said:
“The Prophet of Allah (PBUH&HF) emerged from the house of Aisha and said. ‘The pivot of disbelief is from here, where the horns of Satan will rise.’”
“The Prophet of Allah (PBUH&HF) emerged from the house of Aisha and said. ‘The pivot of disbelief is from here, where the horns of Satan will rise.’”
reference: Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, the Chapter of Seditions, v4, p2229”
Below are the references which define and clarify the context of the hadith!
Muslim Bk 1, Number 0083:
It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Mas’ud that the Apostle
of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) pointed towards
Yemen with his hand and said: Verily Iman is towards this
side, and harshness and callousness of the hearts is found
amongst the rude owners of the camels who drive them behind
their tails (to the direction) where emerge the two horns of
Satan, they are the tribes of Rabi’a and Mudar.
It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Mas’ud that the Apostle
of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) pointed towards
Yemen with his hand and said: Verily Iman is towards this
side, and harshness and callousness of the hearts is found
amongst the rude owners of the camels who drive them behind
their tails (to the direction) where emerge the two horns of
Satan, they are the tribes of Rabi’a and Mudar.
Muslim Bk 41, Number 6938:
Ibn ‘Umar reported that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace
be upon him) as saying (in a state) that he had turned his
face towards the east: Behold, turmoil would appear from this
side, from where the horns of Satan would appear.
Ibn ‘Umar reported that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace
be upon him) as saying (in a state) that he had turned his
face towards the east: Behold, turmoil would appear from this
side, from where the horns of Satan would appear.
Muslim Bk 41, Number 6939:
Ibn ‘Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon
him) stood by the door (of the apartment of) Hafsa and,
pointing towards the east, he said: The turmoil would appear
from this side, viz. where the horns of Satan would appear,
and he uttered these words twice or thrice and Ubaidullah b.
Sa’ld in his narration said. The Messenger of Allah (may peace
be upon him) had been standing by the door of ‘A’isha.
Ibn ‘Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon
him) stood by the door (of the apartment of) Hafsa and,
pointing towards the east, he said: The turmoil would appear
from this side, viz. where the horns of Satan would appear,
and he uttered these words twice or thrice and Ubaidullah b.
Sa’ld in his narration said. The Messenger of Allah (may peace
be upon him) had been standing by the door of ‘A’isha.
Muslim Bk 41, Number 6943:
Ibn Fudail reported on the authority of his father that he
heard Salim b. ‘Abdullah b. ‘Umar as saying: O people of Iraq,
how strange it is that you ask about the minor sins but commit
major sins? I heard from my father ‘Abdullah b. ‘Umar,
narrating that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon
him) as saying while pointing his hand towards the east:
Verily. the turmoil would come from this side, from where
appear the horns of Satan and you would strike the necks of
one another; and Moses killed a person from among the people
of Pharaoh unintentionally and Allah, the Exalted and
Glorious, said:” You killed a person but We relieved you from
the grief and tried you with (many a) trial” (xx. 40). Ahmad
b. Umar reported this hadith from Salim, but he did not make a
mention of the words:” I heard”.
Ibn Fudail reported on the authority of his father that he
heard Salim b. ‘Abdullah b. ‘Umar as saying: O people of Iraq,
how strange it is that you ask about the minor sins but commit
major sins? I heard from my father ‘Abdullah b. ‘Umar,
narrating that he heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon
him) as saying while pointing his hand towards the east:
Verily. the turmoil would come from this side, from where
appear the horns of Satan and you would strike the necks of
one another; and Moses killed a person from among the people
of Pharaoh unintentionally and Allah, the Exalted and
Glorious, said:” You killed a person but We relieved you from
the grief and tried you with (many a) trial” (xx. 40). Ahmad
b. Umar reported this hadith from Salim, but he did not make a
mention of the words:” I heard”.
Further related Ahadith
Muslim Bk 41, Number 6940, Bk 41, Number 6941, Bk 4, Number 1275, Bk 4 Number 1807
And in Bukhari it also has been mentioned which you and your tribe intentionally missed I suppose!
Bukhari 2.147:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: (The Prophet) said, “O Allah! Bless our
Sham and ourYemen
Prophet again said, “O Allah! Bless our Sham andYemen
said again, “Our Najd as well.” On that the Prophet said,
“There will appear earthquakes and afflictions, and from there
will come out the side of the head of Satan.”
Narrated Ibn `Umar: (The Prophet) said, “O Allah! Bless our
Sham and our
Prophet again said, “O Allah! Bless our Sham and
said again, “Our Najd as well.” On that the Prophet said,
“There will appear earthquakes and afflictions, and from there
will come out the side of the head of Satan.”
Bukhari 4.499:
Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar: I saw Allah’s Apostle pointing
towards the east saying, “Lo! Afflictions will verily emerge
hence; afflictions will verily emerge hence where the (side of
the head of) Satan appears.”
Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar: I saw Allah’s Apostle pointing
towards the east saying, “Lo! Afflictions will verily emerge
hence; afflictions will verily emerge hence where the (side of
the head of) Satan appears.”
Bukhari 5.672:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “Belief is Yemenite
while afflictions appear from there (the east) from where the
side of the head of Satan will appear.”
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “Belief is Yemenite
while afflictions appear from there (the east) from where the
side of the head of Satan will appear.”
Bukhari 9.213:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: I heard Allah’s Apostle while he was
facing the East, saying, “Verily! Afflictions are there, from
where the side of the head of Satan comes out.” 9.214:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: The Prophet said, “O Allah! Bestow Your
blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our
Yemen Najd .” He said, “O
Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah!
Bestow Your blessings on ourYemen
Allah’s Apostle! And also on ourNajd .” I think the third time
the Prophet said, “There (inNajd ) is the place of earthquakes
and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head
of Satan.”
Narrated Ibn `Umar: I heard Allah’s Apostle while he was
facing the East, saying, “Verily! Afflictions are there, from
where the side of the head of Satan comes out.” 9.214:
Narrated Ibn `Umar: The Prophet said, “O Allah! Bestow Your
blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our
Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah!
Bestow Your blessings on our
Allah’s Apostle! And also on our
the Prophet said, “There (in
and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head
of Satan.”
More references
Bukhari 4.702, 4.714, 9.212
And you go further….
“ Sahih Bukhari Hadith: 9.220
Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad al-Aasadi:
When Talha, al-Zubair and Aisha moved toBasra
This Hadith indicates that obedience to her is disobedience to Allah, and to oppose and disobey her is to obey Allah.”
Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad al-Aasadi:
When Talha, al-Zubair and Aisha moved to
This Hadith indicates that obedience to her is disobedience to Allah, and to oppose and disobey her is to obey Allah.”
This event has been mentioned at another place in Bukhari!
Bukhari 5.116:
Narrated Abu Wail: When `Ali sent `Ammar and Al−Hasan to (the
people of) Kufa to urge them to fight, `Ammar addressed them
saying, “I know that she (i.e. `Aisha) is the wife of the
Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter (world to come),
but Allah has put you to test, whether you will follow Him
(i.e. Allah) or her.”
Narrated Abu Wail: When `Ali sent `Ammar and Al−Hasan to (the
people of) Kufa to urge them to fight, `Ammar addressed them
saying, “I know that she (i.e. `Aisha) is the wife of the
Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter (world to come),
but Allah has put you to test, whether you will follow Him
(i.e. Allah) or her.”
Further refernces
Bukhari 9.221, 9.222
There are few points
1: This is not saying of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) rather is opinion of a companion!
2: Muslims were divided in this war so they were of different opinions and don’t forget that so many Sahaba were supporting Ayesha(RA) too!
3: Ammar(RA) was of the opinion that Ali(RA) is right and Ayesha(RA) is on the wrong but it does not mean that it is the ultimate reality or truth! As I said there were confusions and also miscreants who created divisions and fights among Muslims.
4: Anyone could commit mistake including Ayesha or Ali!
5: This opinion of a Sahabi does not mean that what Ayesha said or did was always wrong and her words or Ahadith were wrong!
6: One can’t stretch this particular event to prove everything right or wrong like your wonderful tribe does!
1: This is not saying of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) rather is opinion of a companion!
2: Muslims were divided in this war so they were of different opinions and don’t forget that so many Sahaba were supporting Ayesha(RA) too!
3: Ammar(RA) was of the opinion that Ali(RA) is right and Ayesha(RA) is on the wrong but it does not mean that it is the ultimate reality or truth! As I said there were confusions and also miscreants who created divisions and fights among Muslims.
4: Anyone could commit mistake including Ayesha or Ali!
5: This opinion of a Sahabi does not mean that what Ayesha said or did was always wrong and her words or Ahadith were wrong!
6: One can’t stretch this particular event to prove everything right or wrong like your wonderful tribe does!
“The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said to his wives: “I wonder which one of you will be the instigator of the Camel Affair, at whom the dogs of Haw’ab will bark, and she will be the one who has deviated from the straight path. As to you Humayra (i.e., Aisha), I have warned you in that regard.”
references:…”
references:…”
And you don’t refrain referring from weak books and also forged Shia texts! Brains of you and your tribe are so narrow and close that you people can’t see in broader and real contexts, actually it is not your fault you people have been brainwashed and have been living in this narrow world since your childhoods! But do one thing! Kindly don’t try to brainwash and confuse innocent people!
……………………………………………………………………………………………
I personally learned so much out of it and hopefully others did too. If one has gone thoroughly through this intense discussion, he/she would be strong against many attacks, deceptions and temptations!
Although this discussion stopped here but still there can be further such encounters, will be sharing if there will be any :). Stay good and keep your spirits up. Best wishes. :)
